Moe is a better groundskeeper's name.
@Adam So is Lot. LON is feeble. But it didn’t need to be — we can all think of a better clue. Unfortunately, the laudable ambition of this puzzle was not quite realized in the execution. Too much strained and awkward fill.
@Adam That's where I started.
@Adam Moe is a bartender's name. Willie is a groundskeeper's name.
@Adam Poo can have a trailing p also, and is in the same part of the puzzle
@Adam Moe and Lon should start a groundskeeping company together
@Adam yes!! Especially as Lon sounds nothing like lawn in my accent (if that’s what it’s going for?). N was the last square to fall for me, and even when I got it right I couldn’t see why
Not sure other commenters realize what an amazing feat of construction this is-- bravo.
@Jl seder I think we do. But we also have high standards and high expectations. There must come a point where the editor takes a long hard look and says “no, I’m afraid this is a work of flawed genius, and the flaws outweigh the genius.”
@Jl seder The thing is, a grid being a feat of construction doesn't always translate into the solve being fun. Some things that are very difficult to do aren't really worth doing. (I didn't find the puzzle particularly hard, but as I was solving I kept thinking I would have preferred something more traditional and more engaging 🤷🏽 - the paired acrosses forced the constructor to rely on short and easy downs, which was disappointing, for me: spamming three letter entries isn't optimal construction, is it?)
@Jl seder I thought it was super fun. I did admire the construction.
@Jl seder, I agree and greatly enjoyed it! Maybe a Portland bias?🤔😊
@Jl seder I thought it was a delight.
Fun puzzle, but COUNTS NOSES?!
@Michael B. Yup, COUNTS NOSES: <a href="https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fHlpxsvbxC0&ra=m" target="_blank">https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fHlpxsvbxC0&ra=m</a> (Pertinent line at 0:32.)
@Michael B. New to me as well, but apparently a thing. "Count noses" is an idiom that means to find out how many people are in a place or how many people support a plan or vote.
@Michael B. Equivalent to that other well-known phrase: count ears and divide by two.
Okay, regarding the difficulty of making this puzzle, I’ll just say this. It took Joel Fagliano, a pro’s pro constructor, five years to make a similar one (7/30/2020), and from his notes, it sounds like most of the time was spent pulling out his hair. Two points: First, every across answer today not only has its crossing answers to aid in solving, but another across answer as well! That was a new solving experience, and just felt very cool and quite wonderful. Second, 11 of the 14 paired answers are NYT debut answers! What? Really? Read those phrases, they all sound in the language. Daniel somehow filled this seemingly impossible-to-make puzzle with remarkable freshness! That first point made the outing fun and memorable. The second, well, the skill that underpinned the making of this blew me away. Daniel, sir, part of me is bowing down, and part of me is pumping my fists in a raving standing-O. This was a gem. Thank you!
Jus' sayin'...I don't pronounce LON and "lawn" alike. No "cot/caught merger" where I'm from.
@Steve L — nor in any of the nine states I've lived in.
@Steve L would've preferred "seen drinking a pina colada at trader vic's"
@Steve L I'm so curious now! How *do* you pronounce Lon and lawn, cot and caught? – because I pronounce them exactly the same (granted, I don't have a New Yawk accent. Is that what's making the difference?)
You're obviously not from Noo Yawk.
@Steve L In California, those pairings sound exactly the same!
@Steve L Same with me. Except I would never have guessed that LON was a name (yes, I've heard of Lon Chaney).
@Steve L I grew up in New Jersey and now live in Minnesota. Growing up, I learned to pronounce lawn like it is spelled, with a W. But people here in MN pronounce it LON. I cannot get them to stop. In my opinion, wordplay that is dependent on a specific accent to work should be avoided. I literally could not understand how LON was a fitting name for a groundskeeper until I came to the comments.
Considering starting a petition to get John Cena and Michael CERA to consolidate surnames. Whichever one is clued, I invariably guess the other
@krovadma What finally helped me keep this straight was seeing Michael Cera in a CeraVe ad during the Super Bowl after the Barbie movie had come out.
@krovadma, John and Cena both have an “n”. That’s how I remember.
I admire the effort out into constructing the puzzle but just did not enjoy the solve. Alas.
@Adam G Same here, even though I finished it without lookups.
I thought MOE was the better name, too. On the other hand, I had POO instead of GOO, so take my opinion for what it's worth. POO seems apt for that, as well.
Nice change of pace, Mr. Bodily. The effort was worth it IMO.
Brutal trivia dense bottom. Fun idea, but south is a slog. Trivia about media from 20s and 40s crossing a college sports team from the 70s is peak crossword awfulness. For a while these were solvable, lately every Wednesday or later has some crossing section that jams me up right at the end, and not in any way that feels good after the reveal. Just one that feels like cheap difficulty. The bad kind that's not earned through creativity.
@M Yeah, I didn't enjoy the trivia-heavy section of the puzzle, either. It was doable, in the end, but not very fun. The thing is, with a somewhat contrived theme like this, the choice of fill is limited, and this is what the constructor ends up with. That's why I don't usually enjoy "amazing feat of construction" puzzles. They seem more fun for the setter than many solvers 🤷🏽
@M But Hoosier was easily guessed from the crosses, and the team still exists. It is not 70s. As a long time puzzler, I rarely feel good about reveals that are not funny or clever. It is just a game. For others I am not sure of, I like it when I feel I might remember one the next time it comes up.
@M the bottom didn’t bother me. I struggled in the northeast. We all have our own trivia holes
I tried to make the two-part answers have a connected meaning. Failing that, it was mix and match time: BOOLEAN MASSAGES: you can request feet and neck, or feet or neck, or not feet and not neck. CARBON ICED TEA: specialty of backyard charcoal barbecue. WESTERN NOWHERE: municipality not far from Nowhere Junction and Center Nowhere.
@Cat Lady Margaret WESTERN TOPPER would be a good clue for STETSON.
That was. Awful. For a none US solver a lot of the clues were pretty unsolvable, making the whole just a slog of ‘guess the letter’. Lost my streak as I gave up and hit reveal, a move I haven’t done in quite a long while. My apologies to the constructor. I can appreciate the work that went into it and feel bad that it didn’t work for me. Glad others enjoyed it. Onwards. In Alpaca news; getting a bit tricky here. We’re officially in drought, with no rain on the horizon. No grass, hedgerows being rapidly stripped. The girls are sleeping a lot more to conserve energy. May have to try and find some silage for the first time, but it’s an absolute premium as every farm animal is also suffering. Eek.
@Helen Wright What was US specific? Scoot over- US based friend here, looking for a seat on the struggle bus! That was my worst Wednesday of the protozoic era.
@Helen Wright My heart goes out to you. Farms here are struggling as well...if it's not drought, it's fires, and orders from on high designate certain states should not receive assistance/aid.
In a galaxy far, far away, I heard the voice of Obi-DEB Kenobi echoing, Use the crosses, Luke. So I did. Was chuffed to be able to fill in ARIZONA ICED TEA and FIRST MATE without any crosses, but needed a bit of help on the others. A fun Wednesday challenge, Mr Bodily and quite the feat of construction. Well done.
I must say this is the most fun I've had with a Wednesday puzzle in ages! I'm a Slav in Europe so none of this "difficult for a non-American today" nonsense applies today! The difficult part really is in the bottom right: I had problems with FIRST MATE (I've never read Moby Dick, but I've learned to type AHAB whenever the NYT crossword asks for a captain---Much like it's always an OREO when it's about cookies!) and I'm unfamiliar with the INDIANA HOOSIERs, and it sure doesn't help I prefer to count HEADS instead of NOSES. Plus the obvious 47D which the Wordplay columnist already notes as difficult. All in all, very enjoyable week so far. Looking forward to a big bad rebus tomorrow (meaning a spectacular no-solve from me, haha). Kudos to Daniel for pulling off a truly fun theme today!
@Pat-a-pon Not being familiar with Moby Dick, but recognizing Starbuck as the name of a character on Battlestar Galactica, I expected 43/46A to make a comparison between two different works of fiction.
I see some pairs of verticals also lend themselves to this game (it would be cool if the puzzle worked both horizontally and verrtically, but that would be a real FEAT): [Another name for a merkin] LAP WIG [What Henry Miller occasionally craved] NIN A S S [Warning on a high temp glue gun] SO HOT GOO! [What Andrew Murphie of Grantown-on-Spey accomplished when he was 18] CABER FEAT [What does Brandon Hurst as Jehan do in the climax of The Hunchback of Notre Dame?] STABS LON [What a mad scientist in a comedy might have as friends] PET AGARS [When the Secretary of State declared "I am in control here" after Reagan was shot in 1981, it was criticized as an example of...] HAIG HASTE [Botched heist at the jewelry store] CARAT MESS
@john ezra Not bad at all! Love the Miller reference.
I was so committed to MOE being a great name for a groundskeeper
I'm surprised by some negative reactions. For me it was very creative, leading to a new thought process for deducing unknowns. I would gladly take a couple clue concessions (per contructor's notes) for a novel fill experience. Brightened my Wednesday morning, kudos!
An astonishing idea for a puzzle, and one that is unfathomably hard to construct. I believe this probably is a record for number of thematic squares. The fact that the Downs involved some shorter entries actually gives solvers a chance at approaching it gradually. I didn't mind that some of them were oft-used, as the cluing seemed fresh. Count me among those who enjoy seeing something so unexpected.
@Will Johnston Well if you call the theme “having full entries on each line broken up”; then it has to be a record, since every square is part of the theme (or at least a record unless or until someone did something similar with fewer black squares) but I don’t think that’s a fair benchmark for the most themed material. I would consider themed material to be related entries on a rated topic or at least some tighter conceit. For example a previous puzzle once had entries that all had alternating consonants and vowels. You could make that case that all the fill there was theme material as well, but I wouldn’t. Not trying to diminish the incredible challenge it took to do this puzzle, but if we are giving puzzles hall of fame awards and one of the categories was “most themed squares” I wouldn’t consider this one as counting.
@Will Johnston There was a puzzle a while back where all the Across clues formed a letter when combined.
Great change for a Wednesday. Clever and varied clues.
Let me know when you finish cluing the puzzle.
@dutchiris Okay, so it wasn't that hard—maybe not hard enough for a Wednesday. My first pass made me seriously grumpy, which can happen with far fewer dashes where there should be clued fills. I'm not mad at you personally, Daniel Bodily—more of an impersonal snarl. Thanks for the puzzle. Maybe I'll love the next one.
For those who have been looking for a Wednesday themeless this is essentially it, and extremely well done. This is no easy task to stack all these two part answers so cleanly. The easiness of the down clues perhaps made it a little less fulfilling than I’d wish, but it is a Wednesday after all and I can’t but tip my hat Tia oh a marvelous construction.
[Grouchy Bodily response to critics] I adored this puzzle and I say that as one who hates having to repeatedly click the previous clue. GET OFF MY LON!
This was fun! I liked the connected clue gimmick. It was a nice change of pace from other typically-presented themed crosswords. I can’t imagine what it took to construct this thing. Well done!
The groundskeeper should have been 'Moe'
@Dick Yates I couldn't get past that!
@Dick Yates et al Pleeeeease explain! Larry, MOE, and Curly? But why?
@Dick Yates Totally agree. Also, LON does not sound anything like "lawn" where I live.
My take on the LON donnybrook (or is it dawnybrook?): Just as puzzle clues don’t have to be perfect definitions, answers don’t have to be perfect homophones. I don’t pronounce “Lon” and “lawn” exactly the same, either, but let’s agree it’s close enough and move on. PS- Another vote for “Moe”. 🙂
Southeast corner is a lot harder when you settle on "Moe"
@James Which also happens to be a much more fitting answer than the very iffy LON.
@James I was pretty proud of coming up with Moe as well. LON was the only part of the puzzle I didn't like.
@James and HEADS. I had to resort to the tricky clues part of the column to get me unstuck when check puzzle showed me I was wrong.
I hated this puzzle. I found it more annoying than challenging. But that is me. I see a lot of people enjoyed it. Different strokes for different folks.. Rating: 7/10
@Darren You're not alone. I hated it, too ... and this was a Wednesday? Not hardly.
What you need to know:... Let's play... What you need to know:... Let's play... What you need to know:... Let's play... What you need to know:... Let's play... What the NY Times developers need to know... I don't need the same annoying pop-up every time I open the app or when I switch back from another app or after I complete the puzzle and open the app to give you feedback. The puzzle itself was fun, minus the annoying pop-up.
@Kurt I couldn't agree more! Thought if I exited until the end of the day they would have fixed the glitch. Nope. :-(
@Kurt Try uninstalling and reinstalling the app. That worked for me so far.
Absolutely incredible construction. Was an easy solve but I can't imagine the amount of work that went into making this all work. Was impressed the whole time.
What a beautiful FEAT of construction, Mr. Bodily. Thank you for your dedication and persistence in creating this grid. It made for a nice change of pace, being so dependent on the downs to crack open the acrosses. Even knowing that would be the case, our brilliant constructor didn't let us off the hook too easy. Case in point: city on the Guanabara Bay. Yes, you all know that I know it, but that doesn't mean I empathize any less with those who don't. In fact, my thought was "How are people supposed to know that? It's so specific, not run-of-the-mill such as referencing Ipanema, or Copacabana, or Sugar Loaf Mountain, or the Christ The Redeemer statue." Normally, we could say "get it from the crosses" but, in this case, we were trying to get the crosses! I ran into that problem with TNN, CENO, ODU, and CABER – which forced me to think and maneuver around them, and I loved it! (Here is a fun video that promoted Rio for the 2016 Olympics, to the tune of the official anthem of the city of Rio de Janeiro: <a href="https://youtu.be/30HM-O9LajQ?is=K6307Z6qZJj2a47G" target="_blank">https://youtu.be/30HM-O9LajQ?is=K6307Z6qZJj2a47G</a> And here is the city's anthem as sung by Caetano Veloso, a legend of Brazilian Pop Music, with a Bossa Nova twist: <a href="https://youtu.be/GCJVGtQswOw?is=9_MizTwpV8JPP8Tq" target="_blank">https://youtu.be/GCJVGtQswOw?is=9_MizTwpV8JPP8Tq</a>) Thanks again. Mr. Bodily. You never cease to amaze me!
@sotto voce Here's a trailer for a movie that I very much love and try to get people to watch whenever the opportunity comes up. It's a non-formulaic 1998 romantic comedy starring Hope Davis, and it uses Brazilian music on its soundtrack to great effect. Whoops, almost forgot to mention the name. It's called Next Stop Wonderland and can be rented from Amazon Prime. <a href="https://youtu.be/4FrpLyK9mdw?si=xMyTOZm3vkTz9qN1" target="_blank">https://youtu.be/4FrpLyK9mdw?si=xMyTOZm3vkTz9qN1</a>
@sotto voce Guanabara Bay was completely unknown to me, but I guessed RIO without any crosses. Try thinking of a three letter city "familiarly", how many other choices are there? Guanabara sounded like it could plausibly be Central or South American.
Just thought I'd mention that our fearless leader, Will Shortz, was born in Indiana and graduated from Indiana University in 1974, so a little shoutout to him at 57-58 Across. His birthday is later this month. (Way to get your puzzlepublished, Mr Bodily.)
In Canada, where we say things a little differently, we were always proud of our Bonanza! groundskeeper, Lorne* Greene. *which is how my English neighbour pronounced ‘lawn’.
Well done, this is pretty impressive. Sometimes a gimmick results in strained fill and I guess there are a couple of iffy ones here but this is ambitious and neat. Reminds. me of the perfectly symmetrical puzzle from a couple of years back, and the ones with only a single vowel.
If you can pronounce sorry sari then LON can be lawn 😀 Nice puzzle. No idea what an ARIZONA ICED TEA may be but given the current heatwave (I really think the climate scientists should have warned us) I’m willing to try one.
@Ιασων When my wife and I visited the US, Arizona Iced Tea cost 99c for a large can and everybody seemed to love it because it was cheap and tasty. I'm not sure there actually was any tea in it though 🤣
@Ιασων Sorry and sari are perfect homophones in my Brooklyn accent. Lon and lawn aren’t even close.
Not being a religious man, I thought HEAD MeSSAGES might be the correct answer to "temple services" 🤣
@Andrzej, I originally had Holy MASSAGES, and thought, maybe I should return to church. (Missing the ? Didn’t help me either!)
Difficult for a non-North American today. Never heard of the ancestor, the staff member, the drink, the college and so on. Not a fan of the gimmickry in splitting the answers, but that's just personal preference. A nice challenge, despite the maddeningly insular answers to a lot of clues.
I can respect that this was a tricky thing to construct, but, in the words of the great Dr Ian Malcolm, “Your scientists were so preoccupied with whether they could, they didn't stop to think if they should.” At least it only took me half my average time. I guess the reason I didn’t enjoy this is that I had to take extra time to click back to the previous clue to remind myself what the first clue was. It was just a little irritating procedurally. Perhaps better on paper.
@abelsey True, but the former precipitated an ecological catastrophe of epic proportions, and the latter just meant a few people would have less than pleasant Wednesday crossword solves for their taste. So there’s that, at least.
@abelsey Agree… I had no issue with the puzzle per se, but the fact that every time I wanted to think about an across clue when I was on the right half the grid I had to click on the clue on the L drove me nuts! I realize this is how it’s often written for this type of clue spanning multiple entries, but it would have been so much more pleasant if they could have re-written the clue stem in the second half clues as well!
Something different. And it’s Wednesday, which seems like the perfect day to try this. Daniel executed this well, I think. Don’t ever ever use this concept in a Friday or Saturday, though. Pretty please.
All good until 'lon' and 'counting noses.' Still don't really get 'lon', as it isn't a homophone for lawn. And 'counting noses' is not a term anyone ever uses. Ruined a satisfying puzzle in the end. As usual, this seems like an editor issue, not a creator issue. Could have easily been corrected.
@Hitch Lon and lawn are homophones in varieties of English that have undergone the cot-caught merger. Scotland and Canada are often cited, along with parts of the U.S. How the sounds converge varies from place to place. Sometimes cot wins, sometimes caught. This kind of thing is common. Where I grew up, Mary, marry, and merry sound the same. And we counted noses as well. I heard it often from parents and teachers hoping they hadn’t misplaced a child. It’s a common enough synecdoche.
@Hitch You've been around here for a while. You should know better than to write "is not a term anyone ever uses." Sorry that ruined the puzzle for you.
@Hitch > And 'counting noses' is not a term anyone ever uses. You sure? "Like the Toronto researchers’ report, the new Portland chamber study uses cellphone data to count noses." <a href="https://www.oregonlive.com/business/2023/08/downtown-portlands-recovery-better-than-advertised.html" target="_blank">https://www.oregonlive.com/business/2023/08/downtown-portlands-recovery-better-than-advertised.html</a> "Then on Nov. 1, we count noses, decide we're all here, and we don't have to worry for the next 364 days." <a href="https://www.startribune.com/trick-or-treating-dead-not-really-but-it-s-been-tamed/453094623" target="_blank">https://www.startribune.com/trick-or-treating-dead-not-really-but-it-s-been-tamed/453094623</a> "'I’ve got to count noses and also count how they’re gonna vote,' Durbin said, 'I can’t predict all will be called. I’m not sure yet.'" <a href="https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/congress/dianne-feinstein-back-dc-still-missed-another-vote-rcna83794" target="_blank">https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/congress/dianne-feinstein-back-dc-still-missed-another-vote-rcna83794</a>
My sense is people will either hate it or love it. Count me as one who enjoyed it and also greatly admired the skill needed to construct this type of puzzle. Well done.
I fully appreciate what a challenging construction this must have been. What an achievement!
I'm really disliking these pop-ups that block puzzles in the app every time I open them.
Try uninstalling and reinstalling the gameplay app. I did that upon the advice of the tech people and it worked. I'm on Android and there was an update today.
Well, I've never lied to you before, so I won't start now. I'm not a huge fan of split clues in any puzzle, kind of a PET peeve of mine, even if it's just one. So, this one was never going to be a favorite for me, though I'm normally a big fan of Mr. Bodily's puzzles. I appreciate that it's something a little different though and at least you didn't have to go elsewhere in the grid for the partner clues, like you normally do so there's that. ☺️ Also, to my memory there were no gendered Latin suffixes, so I'm definitely appreciative of that!! Har!!
In high school we called it imperfect rhyme. What immortal hand or eye, Dare frame thy fearful symmetry? It worked for Blake, it worked here. Enough already. Great puzzle.
@LBG The answer to your question is Everette: <a href="https://youtu.be/LzQig3nA58U?si=9e8Ptnlj8T_rJRL8" target="_blank">https://youtu.be/LzQig3nA58U?si=9e8Ptnlj8T_rJRL8</a> And I agree with your point.
@LBG I think it's also called a slant rhyme.