Alumnae, not alumni.
@DIVAS IVLIVS it’s now common for style guides to allow alumni to refer to all groups. Alumnae is still correct and more specific, but alumni isn’t incorrect.
I refuse to engage in the alumni/a/ae debate. The clue led me to the answer, so as far as I’m concerned, it worked. And not to curry favor, but I enjoyed the Indian puns. Dad jokes: bringing all nations together in a common groan.
@Heidi The clue kept me from finding the answer for longer than I like. YMMV but the complaint is valid.
I love that I’m not alone in being irked by the masculine noun for two great female comedians.
@Pat N Don't you mean great female comediennes?
@Pat N Don't forget Tina Fey is also an authoress. And Amy Poehler is a podcast hostess. Maybe, just maybe, we don't need gendered versions of these words? English is not a gendered language. The pearl-clutching over this one Latin word is obnoxious.
Fey and Poehler are alumnae not alumni.
There will be a lot more conversation about the homonymy of 17A. But more importantly, Tina Fey and Amy Poehler are ALUMNAE, not ALUMNI, of SNL. At least, last I looked, but even if there's a dictionary that allows the latter, why not include at least one male star in 50 years to make the clue above reproach?
@Steve L To answer my own question, this from Merriam-Webster: Alumnus or Alumna? Many people are comfortable using the word alumni to refer to someone who was a student of a particular school. However, others feel quite strongly that this is an error and that the following forms should be used: alumnus (for one male), alumni (for multiple males, or for a mix of males and females), alumna (for one female), and alumnae (for multiple females). The shortened form alum and its plural form alums began to be used in the 19th century. Initially, alum was widely viewed as highly colloquial or informal, but is increasing in use as a gender-neutral alternative. <a href="https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/alumnus" target="_blank">https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/alumnus</a> So technically, the clue passes muster, but my quibble stands.
@Steve L I don’t see how your MW review below supports this error, technically or not. Alums would be fine colloquially, but alumni is not. Nor by the New York Times style guide, as far as I can tell. Alumnae is the correct term for two females and it would have been tremendously easy to pick an extra male alumnus. Not the end of the world, but it is a rare editorial error, clearly.
@Steve just came here to complain about this!
@Steve L To be very clear, I don’t actually care about the alumn- octop- tamal- chatter. I’ve tried, but I can’t. I will add, as my daughter-in-law prefers they-them pronouns, they also prefer alumni /alumnx in regard to their alma mater. They don’t care much, either. But prefer to avoid female-specific language. Tomato/tamale!
@Steve L Looking closer at the MW definition, they note the gendered language distinction for sense 1 (a graduate) but simply say person without context for sense 2 (SNL)
Ayn and Mao creep in to a bar… …for even sworn enemies must set aside combat for a Bud.
@L Oh wow, I didn't even catch that - the irony of having them both in one puzzle! And that does indeed sound like the beginning of a rather erudite joke: Ayn Rand and Mao Zedong walk into a bar....
Hey, when a puzzle makes me smile, brightens my day, I’m grateful. Sunday’s “buy this junky car” theme did just that, and today was a lovely chaser. Especially the engaging SARI NOT SARI which not only brought a laugh, but had me imagining the scene in which the gowns are being sorted. This was a tight theme. It was silly, quirky, and clever, and its purpose was to entertain, on top of giving us a box to fill with letters. Bravo to you, Vasu, for coming up with it. The Hindi for “wedding” is “shaadi”, which sounds like an American word that is the opposite of what your puzzle was. I loved it, and thank you!
Count me in for the alumnae grumblers. Shouldn't the editors have noticed this?
Postcard from the bride to her maid of honor: Henna wonderful time, Vishnu were here.
@Grant Very nice.
I thought SARINOTSARI and HOLIMATRIMONY were clever. I thought ALUMNI when ALUMNAE was indicated by the clue was puzzling. If you want alumni as the answer then clue it as mixed genders. Tina Fey and Jimmy Fallon, for example. Erasing women from the language smacks of Pete Hegseth, over at the Department of Defense (oops, Department of War) don’t help him, Will Shortz.
@Spelling Marauder this 💯. It's not about what 'the dictionary says' is fine in English, it's about staying true to the structure of gendered language and not erasing the feminine for the sake of ease. My HS latin teacher would be so proud.
This is a weird kind of elitism - or something - on display. We absolutely do not need different latin endings to the same word to specify various combinations of gender cohorts. One word works fine, and dictionaries agree. Nobody calls women, "gals," anymore, either. We're all just guys, you guys. If you wish to be so specific, go for it, I guess, but there is no obligation to do so. Therefore, the clue is fair.
@Steve good, then I’m sure you’ll be happy to be a member of the ALLUMNAE association
@Steve What "need"? There aren't different Latin endings because the English language needed them; there are different Latin endings because the Latin language needed them. If we're going to borrow their singular words, why should we not also borrow their pluralization?
This is a nitpick, but it is important because it illustrates the decline of learning in our Latin-based language. The plural for two women comedians is ALUMNAE . ALUMNI means men or mixed gender.
@Skeptical1 - I came here to say this too! (Classics major alumna of a women’s college :)
@Skeptical1 I came to say that as well.
@Skeptical1 I was going to point this out as week, but you did so more eloquently than I would have. Ave!
@Skeptical1 Aah yes, Latin 101. So, so long ago...
@Skeptical1 could not have said it better myself. I had an error stopping me from completing and when I came to the 'A' I said no, the NYT would not make that mistake. Apparently I was wrong
@Skeptical1 I knew someone would have already commented on this, so you saved me the trouble. I'm shocked that an editor would have allowed this.
@Skeptical1 YES! And so many wonderful alumni from the SNL ranks to choose from…this could have been easily *solved* vs making us *cross*. ;)
@Skeptical1 I suspect many of us saw that and did nothing, so thank you!!!
@Skeptical1 Isn't English a Germanic language?
@Skeptical1 I should have scrolled further before I made my own comment on AE vs I…
I didn't come close to beating my Tuesday record time :-( I'm sadder Budweiser for having tried!
I liked the Indian theme, especially sari not sari and naan apology
So, sign me up on the “meh” side of this one. I’m all for bad puns, you know that, but these seemed just a little bit tired (except for NAANAPOLOGY which seemed pretty fresh). And I’m really disappointed that they used the homonym just two days ago as a clue to SARI. If I were this constructor I’d feel they really took the wind out of my sails and would have been disappointed that they didn’t think to change that clue on Sunday’s puzzle, I’m shocked, really. That said this was a decent grid for a Tuesday, and I enjoyed it on that basis alone (although count me as one who agrees that ALUMNI is a clear unforced error and ACER is clunky). Have to ask though, if you were trying to impress by going out with a great civil rights leader, would that be ARMGANDHI? (He was a DAL, wasn’t he?). I almost had another less well known politician as my date, but luckily avoided that—it was a NEHRU escape.)
@SP How bad do puns have to be to make even you cringe at them? Now we know... So, here goes: Robot making fried Indian snacks? CHAATBOT And here's one in reverse: Indian potato dish that - surprisingly - is not talked about in a British can ALOO CHAAT (Did I just create a cryptic clue?)
Cute! Hearty chuckles for this theme
I’m old, so I remember when "he" was the “correct” default for any unknown person, e.g. “If a professor is ill, he should find a substitute lecturer." Most of us wouldn’t write this today, but rework the sentence to be plural or even use the "singular they." We would not default to the male term. So why on earth would we think it’s ok to use some sort of "inclusive male term" for two women grads of SNL? I found it very sexist.
@Deborah Gordon Sexist ?? Why not offer some grace and assume it was just an error ?
@Deborah Gordon it’s actually the opposite. Alumni is the general plural term, not the male-specific one - it still applies even when there is a group of mixed genders, whereas alumnae is women only. By allowing alumni to refer to all groups regardless of gender, it signifies that gender is irrelevant. What’s important in the context is their achievement/affiliation, not their gender.
@Deborah Gordon I always thought having a special term for a female version of something was sexist. "Poetess" being a prime example. Why is she not just a poet? Is the idea of a lady poet so ridiculous that we need a separate word for it? Why do we need to specify the gender at all? English is not a gendered language. Let's keep it that way.
@Deborah Gordon I’m glad the use of male pronouns by default has faded. I like the old fashioned one as good gender neutral pronoun and wish it were used more. What really grates on me is the use of alumni to refer to one person, male or female. Ugh!
With apologies, I won't be entering the fray of ALUMNI vs ALUMNAE; I'm too busy committing Naoero to memory now that Nauru has officially changed its name. Look at all those vowels! I'm banking on it showing up in a crossword in the future... As for today's shout-out to an Indian wedding, it was cute wordplay, but I got more enjoyment out of the rest of the fill because I'm usually not a good audience for dad jokes. It's a rare one that makes me laugh, not groan, and that's on me. I liked seeing DANISH not clued as a pastry, and OREO with yet another description (and now I know what an "enrobed" cookie is.) It's a wonder Nabisco hasn't put out a limited edition of packages that come with a collector's edition booklet of all the OREO clues ever published in the NYT crosswords. As for the whale, I was hoping it wood be BeLuga, not BALEEN, just because I love saying beluga. Overall, I had a good time solving and think the puzzle was nicely done. Thank you, Mr. Seralathan!
@sotto voce Yes I noticed the country formally known as NAURU and wondered when we will see the new name, or the old name clued as “____, once”.
@sotto voce I had (Baby) BeLuga, too, and I hated to give it up.
@sotto voce It's like the country formerly known as Nauru changed their name specifically to be crossword friendly. I mean, look at it: Naoero. So many potential crossings for OREO!
@sv "I'm too busy committing Naoero to memory now that Nauru has officially changed its name." To John Fearn and myself, she'll always be Pleasant Island!
I had the initial P for 'Cops, in slang' (53D) and I have to say, I thought it was a little 60s-ish. Some relief when I eventually got the right answer . . .
@Andrew My daughter (who is mid 30s) still says POPO jokingly
@Andrew Yes, I had the same moment of concern.
@Andrew Having grown up in the '60s, I might have thought the same thing if I had had only the initial P, but I already had ..PO when I got to that clue, so I got it pretty easily.
@Andrew POPO sounds like something an eight year old would say.
I enjoyed this one. It was clever, and a bit more challenging than typical Tuesday
Eons ago, we were heading in to a restaurant and hubby waited outside the car for a few minutes while I primped. When I was ready he asked, “Why all the fuss?” I answered, “Eye candy ain’t gonna make itself!” I’m still proud. My bar is very low.
@CCNY You set the bar! I just ...can't. Allergies, rashes, time and trouble. But I did buy a lipstick for our son's wedding! Okay, 11 years ago, but it's still good. I think.
@CCNY you and @Mean Old Lady are my sisters! But our daughters, if any, should be grateful. I read that having a non-glamorous mother is much better for a girl's self-esteem. When I pointed this out to our daughter after her umpteenth eye roll at my appearance, she just shot back that we should give her the money that would have been spent on therapy.
I hate to keep jumping into this. But this is really starting to bug me. I really think the alumni/alumnae kerfuffle is just an honest mistake, but if it’s not, I think this a terrible insult to these two women. They identify as women and use she/her pronouns. The widely accepted usage for two women is ALUMNAE. If you ignore that just to make some point or try to change the language unilaterally, how is that any different than saying they are two MEN just because you feel Ike it? I don’t get it.
@SP Every time I have to drive behind one of those "I'm a [University of ___] alumni" license plate frames, I want to get out of the car and correct it with a Magic Marker.
@SP It might be a generational thing too, I never heard of the ending of alum- using gendered latin endings depending on the graduate until this comment section. A lot of institutions just no longer make the distinction.
I got a kick out of the theme, especially DELHI PLATTERS and NAAN APOLOGY. Nicely done, Vasu. Way to put the pun in Punjab!
Love the theme! *quietly adds tally mark to the list of grumblings about ALUMNI vs as*
@Isabeau Did you see the last thing I asked you in the last puzzle's comments? I asked you that if you disagreed with the cited authorities (who provided support that crocheting was a form of needlework), would you agree that if such support provided by experts in the field exists and is readily findable, then (despite your misgivings), the clue passes muster from a crossword editor's point of view?
Too many Harry Potter clues lately. I do not enjoy having to think of a transphobic billionaire during crossword time!
Without dipping my toe too deeply into the swamp, may I say that: for Amy Pohler and Tina Fey, two graduates, who happen to be women, of an institution which include both men and women in equal numbers, it is better to use "alumni"; whereas for graduates of a (traditionally) all-women institution, such as Radcliffe or Vassar, it is better to use "alumnæ." (and, people, don't forget the ligature!) Several days ago, someone--@Lucky13?--mentioned the seminal* book *Language and Women's Place*, by the feminist linguist Robin Lakoff (who identified as a cis-woman, I believe). In it, Ms. Lakoff argues that more would be accomplished by striving to erase inequalities in connotation, such as "adventurer vs. adventuress" that to redefine grammar (alumna/-us, she vs. they). (LaWP was published in 1975; I wonder if Ms. Lakoff's views changed since then?) <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=garNxavx8gY&t=1s" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=garNxavx8gY&t=1s</a> (Look, Sam--a whole battery of mice!) *"seminal"--what a patriarchal word!
@Bill So in that case would you call Rosie O’Donnell and Megan McCain alumnae of The View? Doesn’t seem like a strong argument since if you still agree with the distinctions of the words then it should apply to the graduates and not the institution. But your opinion is your opinion.
@Bill Mrs. Lakoff was married to George Lakoff. He was a student of Noam Chomsky. They studied transformational grammar and other areas of linguistics. These studies were the basis of teaching computers to talk, as I understand it. Transformational grammar looks at the "surface structure" versus the "deep structure" of language. In other words: what is the subject of the sentence "Skiing is fun"? Traditionally, people would say "skiing" is the subject. But transformational grammarians will say the subject is "I" because the "deep structure" of the sentence is "I like skiing." That's how commputers learn to talk.
@Bill SNL has certainly not had an equal number of male and female cast members.
@Bill Back in my feisty college days, I and my fellow gals would say we were attending an "ovular" in English Lit.
Great puzzle! Loved it all—the clever clues, the puns and the Indian wedding theme. Thank you, Vasu!
Always nice to see something a bit different. Kind of a tough Tuesday for me, but just made for a good long workout. Really enjoyed finally tumbling to each of the theme answers. And of course a puzzle find. Don't recall another one like this. A Wednesday from April 1(!) 2020 by John Ficarra and Patrick Merrell. Theme clues and answers: "Historic town in Veszprem county, Hungary, noted for its baroque architecture." AREYOUKIDDINGME "Left tributary of the Vitim River in Irkutsk Oblast, Russia" WHOTHEHELLKNOWS "Village between Kruszyna and Jackow in Silesian Voivodeship, Poland (pop. 305)" IHAVENTGOTACLUE Here's that link: <a href="https://www.xwordinfo.com/Crossword?date=4/1/2020&h=63a" target="_blank">https://www.xwordinfo.com/Crossword?date=4/1/2020&h=63a</a> ...
@Rich in Atlanta Oh, and one rather amazing puzzle find. Just surprised at the coincidence of answer lengths. Anyway - a Tuesday from April 21, 1992 by Nancy Scandrett Ross. Three theme answers in that one, all 15 letters and each clued as: "Georgia-born writer." Those answers: FLANNERYOCONNOR ERSKINECALDWELL CARSONMCULLERS Here's that link: <a href="https://www.xwordinfo.com/PS?date=4/21/1992&h=17a" target="_blank">https://www.xwordinfo.com/PS?date=4/21/1992&h=17a</a> ....
@RiA 1) I remember doing that puzzle! The "easter egg" in it is that the correct answers for those clues, as revealed in Wordplay, are MAMA, PAPA, and BABY, respectively. 2) in Georgia, you only get published if you have fifteen letters in your name.
What a sweet puzzle. My second punny theme in a few days that I’ve actually enjoyed (the old car theme was the first, can’t remember which day). Having attended a few Hindi celebrations this brought back pleasant memories. Bit surprised at the number of grouses, but to each their own. To Mr Saralathan I say well done.
Yesterday's big kerfuffle was that crocheting wasn't needlecraft. Short answer: It does use a hook, not a needle like knitting does, but some sources do call it a "hooked needle," and many sources count in among the varieties of needlecraft. So while it's blatantly true that it's a hook, not a knitting needle, the door is open for the clue to pass muster. Today's to-do will be even bigger, based on the number of comments within the first 20 minutes, and I will give it a name: ALUMNIGATE. I was second to point this out, by less than a minute. (I might have been first if my wife hadn't been talking in my ear about, of all things, tomorrow night's dinner, while I was writing.) But my second comment was that despite my own misgivings (and the nagging feeling that ALUMNI was just plain wrong here), there was dictionary evidence that the masculine plural word is now acceptable as a blanket plural form. I don't like this, but it opens the doors for the clue/answer combo to pass muster. Again, I don't like it, but... Maybe some of those crotchety crocheters should come to the same conclusion about the clue/answer in the Monday puzzle.
@Steve L Steve, I’m looking over the MW reference that you posted and what I can see and I think you are misinterpreting it. It does say alumni can be gender neutral but I think this means when they are mixed, or you don’t know the gender. This is not like calling a female actor “actor” which is now accepted usage. It’s just a mistake. Again, nothing that should call down the heavens, but I don’t think it was deliberate and if they had noticed it I think they would have fixed it.
@Steve L You're absolutely right. And it's especially hilarious for Latin Grammar Police to show up, sirens blaring, for a clue about Saturday Night Live!
@Steve L You've already posted about it. How many more can we expect?
@Steve L If 53D had been the P-word I originally thought of, I don't think anyone would be talking about alumni/alumnae.
@Steve L Latin rules are not open to change. It's not a living language.
Odd, I tried to put the obvious name into 11 down, but it didn’t fit.
One of the uncanny things about the New York Times crossword puzzle is how frequently a theme fits right into one’s own life. I am in the throes of searching for an outfit to wear to my grandson‘s upcoming wedding to a lovely woman of Indian heritage. So with With a hoot I quickly filled in the first theme clue, referring to one of four types of glittery garments I can choose from. The rest of the theme answers came very easily.
You pundit most excellently, Vasu.
Some theatres, like Chicago's Steppenwolf, use the term "actor" to describe a performer of any gender, rather than using the feminine-specific term "actress." Maybe that's in the same vein as using "alumni" regardless of whether any males are involved?
@Michael Weiland I believe alumni is plural for both alumnus and alumna, so gender isn't a factor.
@Michael Weiland Good point. As an alumna of an all-girls high school, I'll die on the alumnae hill, but yeah, it's a bit arbitrary. I think insisting on the correct Latin endings can be a flex, and a pretentious one at that. Is it contradictory to insist on alumnae while also forbidding actress? Word policing is a tricky business. Interestingly in French, gender is quite entrenched. Occupations typically have gendered endings, like acteur and actrice but also musicien and musicienne.
@Michael Weiland I still wonder why we stopped calling them actresses.
@Michael Weiland I mean, we don't call Emily Dickinson a poetess. So why is Emily Blunt an actress?
The whole alum… thing made me laugh for a completely different reason. My wife and about a dozen fellow high school alumnae are in constant contact in a years long text stream. They always refer to each other as guys.
@Kevin D Back in the day, the way to tell a Yankee Lady was if she said, "Guys! Look at this!" Bless her heart. (I lived in Ohio for 9 years (Cincinnati) and then again for 14 years (East of Cleveland/Chagrin Falls) ... picked up some, um, habits. Being too direct was one ...so, then... living/working in the South, I was stepping on toes and giving offense. As DHubby observed, "Dear, you lived too long amongst the Yankees."
@Kevin D To me, “guys” used colloquially is a perfectly acceptable and inoffensive informal way to address a mixed group, and maybe even a group of women. (I’m a fellow Ohioan). But interestingly enough I remember that Jeff Probst on Survivor used to address the tribes with “C’mon in guys!” and one day deliberately dropped it because some found it offensive.
I’m guessing there’s a pool at the editorial office with bets on which plural will drive the commentariat up the wall. If you can have octopi you can have alumni 😀
@Ιασων Do all Ιασωναε think that?
@Ιασων no. Latin is pretty clear about this actually, and we have retained the Latin endings for alumnxxx in English. You are wrong.
@Ιασων That is not the same thing at all.
@Ιασων They probably gave up reading this section long ago due to all the "too easy" comments. :)
So, apparently previous puzzles have been softening us up for this particular puzzle... Starting, as I prefer, at the bottom, the NAAN/NON APOLOGY was a quick entry/give-away/launch pad. Around OUR house, a SEAR is a lot more serious/dark/painful compared to a SCORCH. (Yes, I still have an iron; actually, two that mean business, and one for little classes or projects away from home.) Oh, and here's Little NELL again! The one torture/burden Dickens couldn't impose on her: the STILETTO style of shoe. That, and maybe KALE.
@Mean Old Lady I have always avoided Nell. I did make it halfway through The Vicar of Wakefield before putting it aside, though. I know that family triumphs in the end but I wasn't up to slogging through all the suffering. Books with impossibly kind, good, blameless characters who suffer one horror after another just never appealed to me.
Loved this puzzle! So clever and much appreciated from one who spent my formative years in India. Thank you!
I don’t usually post but I loved this punny puzzle and am super proud of myself when I got SARINOTSARI right away. I did second guess myself w the crossed but figured out where I went wrong w some trial and error!
Have we finally said goodbye to all those crotchety people who were hooked on knit-picking? I’m considering starting a regular “Beef of the week” comment. So far we have: 1. The crochet hook needling 2. The alumni kerfuffle 3. The chilling conundrum 4. What did i miss? PS I’m not anti-nit! I love a good moan. Keep ‘em coming! PPS I tried the “Across clues only” challenge today and got stuck in the SE corner: i thought CREEPIN was “sneak in” and that derailed me fatally, had to consult the Down clues to finish it!
@Petrol Here’s a nit: on an iPhone, at least, if you hold down the what-is-visibly-an-apostrophe key, you can mandate an apostrophe at the beginning of a ‘word,’ allowing you to properly write something like Keep ’em coming, Rather than the incorrect, but default Keep ‘em coming.
I'm a university 'lum, yadda yadda. My rabbithole was the offbeat rhythms of SKA. Great puzzle, Vasu. Dad jokes for the win!
So many wonderful words to choose from in today’s puzz. Here’s today’s poem: a/ we run rawboned out scratching the surface of the night night the old whale celestial, great we rush — like an astronomer of unwelcoming d/ physics enrobed in an equation of distance and you and i will never stop and a/ yet… oh! oh! oh!
I just stopped by to see if people were up in arms about the Latin word endings. I'll toss in that people very often mispronounce them as well: alumni really ought to rhyme with free, and alumnae with fry, but I usually hear them the other way around.
@J-J Cote If you want to pick nits about Latin, here's one for you. Those two comedians formerly of SNL are not ALUMNI. They're ALUMNAE. Which would throw the whole puzzle off. Whose mistake was that: the editor's or Mr. Seralathan's?
@J-J Cote And I'll toss in that you are correct about the classical pronunciations, but I believe they morphed during the middle ages. Certainly Latin legal terms mostly no longer get the classical pronunciations and you can run into trouble if you use them. Wellesley College [daughter is an alum*] motto is "Non ministrari sed ministrare" ("Not to be served but to serve") and look at the confusion THAT causes. *Not re-opening that can of worms.
25D [Tina Fey and Amy Poehler vis-à-vis "Saturday Night Live"] Technically, when you talk about a group of more than one female graduates, you should say "ALUMNAE." But in common usage, ALUMNI is probably prevalent.
@lucky13 I’ve never seen that in common usage except by those who are unaware of the distinction, never deliberately.
@lucky13 Pure ignorance. Naan excuse. Crossword staff should have flagged this and made acceptance contingent on using a different clue. The grid could have remained the same.
I am not very good at punny/wordplay clues but being an Indian, I'd have been very annoyed with myself if I didn't manage to solve this one. But after some initial struggle, I did manage to cross the finish line. Well done to the constructor, this was groan worthy fun.