This reminded me of one of our favorite mugs, which my sister gave my husband (who is a copy editor by profession!) and which says: “i before e… Except when your foreign neighbor Keith received eight counterfeit beige sleighs from feisty caffeinated weightlifters. Weird.” I get a kick every time I open our cupboard and see it!
@SB "I before E except after C, or sounded as A as in neighbor and weigh" knocks out six of those. The exceptional sentence we were taught was: Neither leisured foreigner seized the weird height. They could be caffeinated and feisty, I suppose.
This puzzle kinda needed to have a revealer (or was EDITORS supposed to be one?)...without one, it just seemed pointless. I got through the puzzle in a normal amount of time, and saw there had to be a rebus right from the start...it had to somehow be VIVIEN LEIGH, which didn't fit. Soon after, I discovered that the IE's and EI's were the rebus, but the across answers and the down answers each had the other digraph. But why? Just because they could? That didn't seem like a satisfying reason. I was waiting to see what clever gem tied all of this together. And there was none. Quite disappointed. (I bet Rex Parker tears this one apart tomorrow morning.)
@Steve L I think oneEIghtIEs was the revealer, since the paired vowels do a one-eighty when reading each across answer, and when toggling between across and down. I would have liked symmetry, instead of 3/4 across answers having one pattern, and 1/4 having the other. Otherwise I enjoyed the theme.
@Steve L It's just a puzzle. Enjoy it for what it is.
You know who should like this puzzle? Former White House Chief of Staff Reince Priebus. Not only because of the EI combinations in both names, but also because... PRIEBUS rhymes with REBUS. Then again, he's probably prefers the Jumble.
@S Godwin Yes, and Priebus may on occasion have contradicted himself, in furtherance of the EI/IE ONEEIGHTIES theme.
Fun puzzle - I think the rebus was gettable even without a revealer (and I think having a revealer for something like this would be either impossible or so on the nose that it would ruin things / not be a clever clue) I try to make it a habit when doing rebus puzzles to always enter them as slashes, putting the across part of the answer before the "/" and then the down part of the answer after. In this case, it really helped me appreciate what a beautiful construction this is - four long across answers which all had both IE and EI in them - and - all crossed with the opposite pairing! Well done!
@AS I agree, I really enjoyed this one, even though I tend not to like themeless puzzles (and even with the IE/EIs, I’d consider this themeless since it has no revealer). It took me until the SW corner to piece together enough to know that “ONE EIGHTIES” had to be the answer there before it clicked and I could go back and fill in the rest. satisfying!
Congratulations on your NYT debuts, Messrs. Michnovicz and Michnovicz! Nicely done!
This was my 1,000th consecutive NYT crossword puzzle! My husband and I will have a fun dinner at a New York-style deli today to commemorate it. (He wanted to surprise me with a trip to NYC, but we’ll do it when the weather and our schedules permit—I’ve been away for too long). I may try to continue the streak, but I think I can just enjoy the puzzles without worrying about missing a day, now. Enjoyed this puzzle, and early on hoped it would not matter in what order I entered the “ei”s or “ie”s. Was excited at the end when I got the gold star and didn’t have to go back and enter both versions in each square. I started doing the NYT crossword puzzles during the pandemic. It helped keep me sane, and has become an important part of my life. Thank you to all the regular commenters. Although I don’t often post, I enjoy the discussion tremendously.
@Magali Wow. Congratulations on the streak! Where does one even go from there? What’s the next level? 2000? yikes! I remember when I started, I did a 1 month streak. Then I was done. Too much pressure! Whatever you choose to do, what an accomplishment. And please post more often. Given your consistency over the past three years, I am sure you have so many puzzle experiences to share with us.
@Magali Congratulations!! I also started doing the NYT crosswords consistently online during the pandemic and agree wholeheartedly about the sanity aspect! The longest consecutive run I've had is just shy of a year -- and I have to say, the pressure to keep going grows exponentially for me at that point. It's kind of a relief to back away... The NY style deli sounds so fun! And you REALLY don't want to be here this weekend -- bitterly cold is an understatement, more snow forecast for tomorrow, and lots of the previous stuff frozen underfoot. Definitely a moment when it's truly the thought that counts! Oh, and I too was relieved that entering just one version of EI or IE worked. I don't mind rebuses, but entering the slash / on my phone in that box multiple times gets tiresome. Nice that it was so smooth today -- must have felt especially good for you at the end! 🌟
@Magali Congratulations! My wife, I and our daughter started dong the puzzle regularly during the pandemics, too. I was a fun way to pass time in semi-isolation. Our daughter graduated college (remotely) and has since moved to her own place my wife and I still do the puzzle every day. So fun!
Hi old friends! I haven’t commented in AGES, but I’m still around. Thought I’d say hi. Hi! Hope everyone’s 2024 is off to a great start. Loved this puzzle, nicely done for a debut!
@Embee Hi again! (Hello little emu.)
@Embee: hiya! We’ve been wondering where you were!
When I scare an amino acid, I make a protein shake. (I'm a tryptophan of these puns.)
When I started crosswords, I hated the rebus. Now, with my first ever no lookup solve on a Thursday with this excellent puzzle, I *am* the rebus. Just don't look at my average solve time.
@Pat Coo coo ka choo. I still hate that feeling I get when I *know* there's some gnarly rebusy rebusness afoot but I lack enough fill to suss it out. But it's like resolution in music or storytelling... once that arrives, frustration morphs into a largely undeserved swagger. (I am the walrus)
@Pat Hey, Pat. No one looks at your solve time but you. Why do you care? Just enjoy the ride. Time is elastic within the gift of imagination, as noted by the wee pup BB.
It’s funny. I wrote a comment, which I then deleted, to the effect that while I love a particularly apt revealer, I think I prefer no revealer for a puzzle like this.* More puzzling. I see Steve L. feels differently. Different strokes. * I deleted it because I began to think about other stuff, non-crossword stuff, and when my mind drifted back to my comment, I thought: “Is this really consequential enough to even think about - whether a crossword should have a revealer?” I was going to skip Wordplay comments altogether because I am so preoccupied by the non-crossword stuff. Then I read the first few comments, including Steve’s, and thought to myself: “Hey, what’s more consequential than crosswords?!” Hence, this comment.
@Puzzlemucker What non-crossword stuff? Just curious. I too have been busy and could not post or read yesterday.
Loved it! Thank you. Knew it was a rebus as soon as I encountered VIVIEN LEIGH, but the double rebuses (rebi? reba?) in her name was a delight. Going to bed with the sound of seven dwarfs in my head. Happy sounds!
Missed a chance for an old Macdonald clue ….
Lots to like: • The fauna aura: PARROT, ORCA, BOAS, MOOER, HORN, HUMANS. • That this puzzle was made by father and son. • Freshness from seven NYT debut answers, including the very lovely STIR THE POT. • That EIDER goes down in the grid. • [“The food of love,” per Shakespeare] juxtaposed with last night’s Jeopardy category, “If food be the love of music”. • BASSO being low. • The rare and wonderful in-puzzle palindrome (SADAT and TADAS). Lots of happy-pops, that is, Jon and Carl, and so I’m very grateful for your puzzle and all the work you put into it – those many iterations you went through before this final version. Congratulations on your NYT debut, and thank you!
For the first time since I have started the NYT crossword puzzle years ago, I give up on this one. This one is just ridiculous. I intelligence to the Rebus. Just random uses of E and I. No thanks.
@Jonathan *no intelligence to the Rebus is what I tried to type. I often enjoy the Rebus because it’s clever. This one just irritated me.
@Jonathan For every rebus pair, the rebus is IE going one way and EI going the other way. It’s extremely clever.
I know I’m in the minority but I LOVE rebus puzzles. Thursdays are my favorite puzzles of the week, and this was up there with one of my favorites ever. The “click” when it all suddenly makes sense is delightful. Great job constructors, and congrats on the debut! Looking forward to more.
@Natalie I don't think you're in the minority, since rebus puzzles are run on about 1/4 of all Thursdays, and have been for years. It's just that those who don't like them are very vocal (mostly those who haven't had enough experience yet) are very vocal and often indignant about them...and often very wrong objectively (there's no rhyme or reason; the constructors are lazy...) about them.* If they weren't popular, rebuses would have disappeared years ago. * PLEASE don't reply that you are VERY experienced and still don't like them and are entitled to your opinion, yada, yada, yada. I used words like "mostly" and "often" intentionally. I know some of you who don't like rebuses are experienced solvers. That's why they say there's no accounting for taste. My mother-in-law hates The Big Bang Theory, but loves Young Sheldon. See what I mean?
Hooray for rebuses! Hooray for emus!
Tough crowd! I liked it and I didn't need no stinkin reveilers. Emus are fiends to the end.
Whenever I see what looks like a rebus, I just skip over affected squares and keep solving the rest of the grid, until I know enough to see what is going on. Such was the case today. Yes, there's no revealer, but by the time I got to the second one (24A), I understood the trick and went back and completed 17A. Like Marshall Walthew (below), the anal side of me prefers to enter the complete rebus, slashes and all. I also agree with Arkangel2 (below), if one "needs" a revealer, 54A is decent stand-in and might have been clued as such ("Complete reversals, as seen here and in 17A, 24A, and 40A"). IT'S A HELP. Finally, I see the subtle dedication to EDITORS in the center for bringing these puzzles to us. Congrats, Jon and Carl, on your debut. P.S. -- I think the ORCA gets a bad rap in crosswords. Just saying.
@Henry Su At least three people have now suggested that 54A is supposed to be a revealer, but I think that's just wishful thinking. A revealer generally adds "and a hint to (other theme answers)". I think people are suggesting 54A could be a revealer because they realize that something to bring purpose to these rebuses is sorely lacking.
@Henry Su yes, we don't want to demonize orcas the way Benchley demonized sharks in Jaws (which he later said he regretted)
Commenting for the first time here to say how much I hated this puzzle, sorry. The theme was unsatisfying to work out, and was really unfun to solve overall.
I’ve done the NYT Crossword off-and-on for a few years. I rarely visit the Comments section, but when I do, it always offers the same lesson about human nature. Most people here appear to be regulars. We have all been faced with exactly the same stimulus. Yet the reactions range from delight to rage, humility to boastfulness, appreciation to venom, focusing on the big picture to nit-picking. If we react the exact same puzzle in such different ways, no wonder our politics, where we opt into wildly different stimuli, are so disjointed. FWIW, I enjoyed this puzzle and appreciate the effort of the creators and editors.
I hated this one a lot! Not fun, barely clever, just tedious. Not good!
Yay!! Finally a rebus again! With no revealer hint - extra tricky. Makes me extra proud I eventually figured it out. To everyone who hates them: just skip Thursday and let the rest of us enjoy without the snark - please?
@Ann No! If I can't enjoy it, then you can't either! This is America! /s
Whew - Apparently a lot of efngisfe (mixed 'feelings') about this puzzle. Good thing we have the crossword blog. If the only way to express one's opinion on the puzzle was to call into the NYT, then I suspect that a whole bunch of solvers would have heard: All of our operators aREBUSy. Ducking and running. ..
@Rich in Atlanta Haha! Rebus puzzle-makers can’t be like my aunt who loved to knit but was tightfisted when it came to paying for yarn. Alas, she was thin-skeined.
I thought this one was really fun and clever.
I don’t have a specific comment, but I want to add my vote to the thumbs up column. I thought this puzzle was great fun.
Well I figured out the rebus but I don't have to like it.
Sometimes I don’t hate a rebus. But I really hate a bidirectional rebus. And the only thing I find even more annoying, is one with difficulty in entering. Wasted more time entering than thinking.
Loved it! Constructors, I'm sure the negative comments sting but please take heart that there are plenty of us who enjoyed this puzzle. I, for one, am very proud of myself. I first started doing the crossword daily on December 2. On Thursday, December 7, there was a bidirectional rebus that caused quite a stir. I solved that puzzle successfully, but only by accident - I didn't even realize a rebus was involved, and my entries were incidentally accepted anyway. Today I feel vindicated - I figured out the trick and entered every rebus completely, finishing the puzzle in under 30 minutes. This one meant a lot to me! Thanks!
These folks don’t need to do another puzzle.
Overland Park well represented !
@Andy unnecessary! I disliked this puzzle too, but the constructors can learn.
I caught on to the rebus pretty quickly, but wasted a lot of time deciding whether to place the correct pair of letters for the across answers before the / or after. Not the first time I have needlessly complicated matters for myself by being persnickety. I should have known that multiple formats including ones without a / would be acceptable, but a rebus never satisfies me unless it contains all the necessary letters and, if appropriate a /.
@Marshall Walthew I think NYT Games has received enough feedback about rebuses that they pretty much accept any combo of across and/or down answers (basically, as long as you have the box right and the general idea of the rebus, they don't want to penalize people for NOT being persnickety) ...but I stand by being persnickety. I find it very satisfying also
@Marshall Walthew Only anecdotally, I believe I've always seen the across rebus before the slash and the down rebus after. But I won't swear to that.
Sorry but this one isn’t a winner in my book. If the rebus doesn’t work for both down and across then maybe it isn’t a well constructed puzzle.
@Whatever, it did work, as far as my reading of the puzzle went—the tricky switch between EI & IE was the whole point.
Whatever, The rebuses *do* work for both Across and Down. They work differently Across and Down. Nothing wrong with the construction. (If you don't like rebuses that work differently Across and Down that's fine, but it's on you, not the puzzle.)
I teach my 2 year old that it's not a game unless everybody knows that you're playing. It's something that she, and the creators of this puzzle, seem to have a hard time with. It's not a fun rebus unless there's a revealer.
@Sarah I know it’s a stretch, but when I got to 54A, the puzzle fell into place for me. The answer showed me that “EI” had to do a ONE-EIGHTY to become “IE” — and vice versa — in the different rebus boxes scattered around the puzzle.
@Sarah You know you're playing, Sarah, and, within that frame of reference, what else matters? The wee pup BB will come judge when called upon, should you feel the necessity for an independent third party.
This puzzle's brilliance -- not only the IE/EI reversals on the crosses but also reversing themselves in their two appearances in each of the main horizontals -- is so inspiring that it probably deserves an award of some sort. In fact, there's a subtle push in the sub-theme of performance & reward: Sadat got his Nobel; the matador performs and tries to dodge the charging bull's HORN then stands there, agleam with Sangre del Toro; the gymnasts and figure skaters do their 180s and land -- tada! -- the Heisman Trophy winners are chosen by sports journalists and EDITORS; the NAVI helped James Cameron and crew win 9 Oscars; Vivien won two of them for GWTW and SCND; and those who play "the most dangerous game" bring home human trophies, as did, one surmises, those gods the Incas sought to appease. Is this all subliminal seduction? Do the Michnovicz boys get to UNWRAP their award now? Cue the MUSIC.
@john ezra Always look foward to your comments! Enlightening as ever, J. Ezra.
@john ezra -- Your comments come in at such a unique angle that is so refreshing and enjoyable. You get me seeing the world through your eyes, making such lovely connections I didn't see before. You are a gift, sir!
I hated it. I accept that other people liked it. Opinions differ. I won't try to talk you out of yours if you offer the same courtesy. I already know that Thursdays often feature the rebus gimmick. Would that it were not so. When I learn that E stands for I or vice versa or some other who-cares gimmick, I am left annoyed, not entertained. There is no a-ha! feeling for me. It's more a feeling of everyone else knows something I don't; yet when I do find out, I don't feel rewarded, I feel annoyed. A crossword is a word puzzle that I find entertaining. It's a fun game. I don't wish to play another hidden game at the same time. When I am playing tennis, if you offer me a chance to play chess at the same time, it's not more fun. It's annoying and distracting. Now, in my view, some gimmicks such as a clever Sunday idea can be quite fun. The difference is that they offer some kind of logic as to why they exist. Put another way, a joke has to have two meanings, not one. A good Sunday puzzle has three, a third way of combining what is said. A rebus like this is just a hassle. There's no clever reason for the gimmick. Violating the rules of crosswords should be done for a purpose. Why are we spelling "Diet" in two ways? I don't know. Why? By the way I'm having a nice day and would appreciate not being ad hominem attacked as a grump. Maybe, just maybe, I have an opinion worth considering. I appreciate the editors taking this into consideration.
@Asher B. No, we are not “spelling diet two ways”, we are entering DIET across and HEIGH down. The crossing being the double rebus as described by Deb in her column. In what way is this “breaking the rules of crosswords”, particularly NYT Thursday crosswords?
The rules are that the clues lead to answers, using common English. If they don’t, that’s breaking the rules. Sometimes it’s worth it sometimes not. If my clue is “canine house pet” and I tell you the answer is “DOGGGGGG” then I have broken the rules. The debate would be whether my reason was worth it
I kept waiting for a reference perhaps to Old McDonald and EI EI O, but it never came. I thought MOOER would contribute to the fun. In the end it seemed kinda pointless.
I absolutely hate rebus puzzles. They should at least let you know it is a rebus or shade the squares or something. It makes no sense otherwise.
Cindy Lou, It's a crossword puzzle. Part of the puzzlement is figuring out that it *is* a rebus puzzle and then figuring out which square or squares contain rebuses. Then you figure out the rebuses. NYT Crossword solvers have been doing rebus puzzles in this manner since 1954.
And it is a Thursday! So always need to consider if it’s a rebus (personally I love them). The Scarlett/Blanche clue was pretty easy - and I used the crosses to figure out the rebus “rules”.
@Cindy Lou Did you know that Scarlett O'Hara and Blanche DuBois was VIVIEN LEIGH? I bet you did. And did you see that VIVIEN LEIGH didn't fit? I bet you did. And that was your notice. Figuring out the rest of the trick was the next step. (People who are football fans and not movie buffs might have had the same experience with HEISMAN TROPHIES.)
I don’t think I am going to read all 476 comments. Based on my regular lurking, I’m guessing many of these are jeremiads about the rebus. I just popped in to say that I really liked this puzzle a lot. At first, I was confused, because some of the clues seemed quite easy, and I didn’t figure out the rebus trick that quickly. I was tickled to find the rebus gimmick, though. I continue to have trouble with the IE/EI spelling thing, even as an academic pretty well into middle-age! And such fun that it works in the opposite order on the downs and acrosses! Congrats to the debut puzzle constructors! I hope to see more from you in the future! Stay warm, everybody!
Put me in the thumbs up crowd. Very enjoyable puzzle and a good workout. Caught on unusually early with VIVIENLEIGH and HEISMANTROPHIES and then had an enjoyable time working out the others with just enough crosses. I had entered all the rebuses with just IE and paused before I finished, wondering if I'd be able to sort out the correct format once I got the 'close but no cigar' message. Was surprised to finish successfully and nice to know that they had decided to take the rebuses either way. One answer history search today was for... EIEIO. Well - it's been answer 73 times, but... only 3 of those in pre-Shortz puzzles. Puzzled by that. Anyway... it's been at least part of the reveal in at least 3 puzzles - two of those VERY remarkable themes. I'll say a bit more about those in a reply. ...
@Rich in Atlanta As threatened: First puzzle was a Tuesday from August 11, 2020 by Amanda Rafkin and Ross Trudeau. I'm sure I had done that puzzle but of course had completely forgotten it. Anyway... EIEIO was the 'reveal' in that one and there were FOUR 15 letter theme answers with that sequence (EIEIO) the ONLY vowels in each answer. Here are the answers: DERRINGERPISTOL REWRITESHISTORY PRESIDENTWILSON VERMICELLIBOWLS And, of those - only PRESIDENTWILSON ever appeared in any other puzzle. Oh, and the reveal clue was "Refrain in a children's song ... or a literal feature of 17-, 25-, 42- and 55-Across." One more puzzle in another reply. ..
@Rich in Atlanta "I have always depended on the kindness of comments!"
okay i LOVE a rebus. like i’m in the trenches every thursday defending rebus puzzles in the comments. they’re my faves. but i’m a bit confused as to why there was no revealer? don’t get me wrong, i figured there was a trick and solved the rebus no problem, but a worldplay revealer always felt like an essential part of a rebus puzzle to me. they’re what helps a rebus puzzle solve feel like an “ohhhh AHA!” and not just “um ok i guess?” anyways…a super fun idea with potential and i loved the rebus clues, but it just didn’t give me that satisfying wordplay solve feel when i “figured it out” without having that revealer. (if ONEEIGHTIES was supposed to be the revealer i feel like it should’ve said “…or a hint to x number of squares/clues in the puzzle, etc.) maybe that’s just me though!
@Abigail No, it's not just you. And to everyone else, no, I didn't sign in under an alias. We're right, you know. !!!!
@Abigail I agree! I love a clever rebus, but I do think that some of the fun of *any puzzle* is taken out of it when there's no revealer :( I felt that way about yesterday's puzzle too. Regardless, I always hate to dogpile on a hate train against constructors, this one just wasn't for me. To Jon and Carl, super cool that you worked together as father and son to make this and got published! I hope to see more of your work soon :)
I usually like rebuses, but this puzzle was more annoying than usual rebuses. I don’t think it was the lack of a revealer. Something about it just doesn’t work for me.
Just completed a rebus, six minutes under my average time, with no lookups. Yes, I am taking a victory lap. If I can do it, anybody can.
I buried this in a long post I wrote below, but given yesterday's and today's comments, it warrants repeating: We solve the puzzle we are given, not the puzzle we imagine.
@Bill - a chef’s comment if ever there was one! and I totally agree. Take enough flour…add enough water…
@Bill A variation, I guess, on “This is the day the Lord has made; we will rejoice and be glad in it.” Psalm 118:24. A thought on a cold, gray, snowy day here.
Omg. No fun at all, beyond frustrating especially for a Thursday puzzle. No more puzzles from this duo please!!!!
Like Jon Michnovicz, I also did 1st grade in Albuquerque, way back in 1980-1981. While I don't recall any concern about our capacity to grok the "I before E" rules and its various caveats, the school board seemed very concerned that any of us might flee the state at some point and spread misinformation regarding the spelling of our fair city (Bugs Bunny had the pronunciation covered ... well enough anyway). Let's face it, is a nutso-looking series of letters. Worse, it doesn't match the spelling of its eponym, Francisco de la Cueva, AKA The Duke of Albu*r*querque. Where'd that "r" go anyway? None who made serious inquiries in that vein lived long enough to report back with their findings, so we may never know. So this is how they learned us: every so often, we'd stand up and intone: AL..... BYOOOO ...... QUARE....... KWEEEE. Over and over again. Kind of screwed up our pronunciation for a while, but once we nailed the spelling, peer pressure and idle threats from adult authority figures set us straight. And the school board was right to be paranoid. My dad got a job in Maryland two years later and we made east whereupon my lifelong mission began to spread the good word, or spelling as it were, to folks who habitually mispronounced my last name and didn't believe me that New Mexico is a state of the United American variety. I have been asked to show my green card more times than is remotely reasonable. Fun puzzle.
If you absolutely must craft a rebus puzzle, you have to at least be consistent about how it works. Not a fan of this one at all.
@Travis Every across theme answer has exactly one EI and one IE, and the down crossings always use the opposite order of the across. IMO it was impressively consistent.
Well, I loved it, and I always love tricky Thursday puzzles—rebus puzzles in particular. I’m not going to yell at anyone who doesn’t like them though. Big thanks to the father and son constructors and Deb, and the whole team, for sticking with this fun EI/IE idea and making it work in the end. Stay well out there in the winter weather.
Neither today’s puzzle nor yesterday’s featured a clever revealer. I don’t mind tricky—I like it, in fact—but I also like the punny entry that gives a hint and puts a bow on the whole thing. Wow. That sounds really whiney. And yet, it is how I feel.
@Josh You're not the only one. I said it right after finishing last night, and I've gotten over 100 reccos. Rex Parker said the same thing on his blog. Several other commenters said the same thing after I did. I don't think bringing up a valid criticism is whiny. Some think that 54A is a revealer, but it's not in the correct form ("and a hint to eight squares..."). It would be a wobbly revealer, but phrased that way, it sorta woulda worked.
Great crossword guys! Thanks for the challenge!
I enjoy a good rebus, but thought the construction of this one was fairly weak. In particular, placing two rebus squares in a (dated) proper name (17A) which many solvers likely won't know should be a no-no. Moreover, crossing that name with two other words that require specific knowledge (1D in the clue, 3D in the fill) which, themselves, are crossed with another proper name (20A) and a foreign-language term (1A)... that's a bit of a mess. Then, again in the SE, one of the rebus squares is in a proper name (51D) which has, as it's immediate neighbor, a foreign language term (50D). Not knowing either of those would leave a sizeable hole in that corner. My feeling is that a good rebus puzzle lets the rebus be the star attraction, which I didn't find to be the case today. The fact that so much of the rebus-containing fill relied on trivia (either in the clue or fill), let me feeling pretty 29D about this puzzle.
Re: (dated) proper name [sic] (17A) Frankly my dear, I have always depended on the kindness of rebuses. or emus