I found that very difficult.
@Wendy Laubach You wouldn’t be the only one. So far, the stats, courtesy of xwstats.com, are: 🌎 Global Stats Difficulty Very Hard Median Solve Time 15:16 Median Solver 12% slower ⚡24% of users solved faster than their Saturday average. 12% solved much faster (>20%) than their Saturday average. 🐢76% of users solved slower than their Saturday average. 24% solved much slower (>20%) than their Saturday average. It went very slowly for me, but I also factor in that I’m extremely tired tonight after a busy day, and I was in a room with several other people who were intermittently talking to me and all through the solve, to each other.
Hmmm…. How to put this? I had _A_INAS and i misread the clue as “Birth places” instead of “Berth places”. Aha, I thought! The NYT has overcome its prudishness! I smugly added a V_G… Turns out i was not in the right ballpark!
@Petrol I triple checked whether I was seeing that "e" in "berth" correctly when I had a similar collection of letters in the answer to the clue :D
@Petrol LOLTTICACF (laughing out loud till it causes a coughing fit) No. That would be putting it mildly. That was not in the right ballpark. Nor is a "ballpark" in the ballpark of metaphors it would be appropriate to use in this context.
So it never ceases to amaze me how a grid that seems insurmountable at first suddenly falls into place. It’s why I keep telling new solvers to be patient. I had nothing, absolutely nothing in the top half, except maybe a bastardized version of RIGVEDA that I couldn’t spell if my life depended on it. Then I had (incorrectly) MATEINTWO and TSARS which at least got me MARINA and eventually MIMOSA and the rest of that corner, Then it was Ghostbusters to the rescue with ECTOPLASM which opened up that corner despite having NONE before BOTH. In the NW for “settled above stools” I had lots of versions of toushie, etc., but BAD… (BADGUYS? BADDIES?) along with the R of RIG led me to BAR something and eventually BARBETS. Eventually the middle came which got me an in to the NE despite having OBGYN before NEURO as my first guess. So folks, just be fearless, be open, wait for that bit of inspiration and those few letters that make sense and suddenly even the hardest puzzles can be revealed to you. And this was no walk in the park. Thanks Cameron for a great workout. Loved DOGBREATH and BARBETS (with BEERMATS in the other corner) and GANGPLANK and LATTEART. And ENVIES over GREED. Speaking of which, it’s a sin that you can put this together in an hour, there ought to be a special circle in Dante’s hell for you where you have to push an OED to the top of a mountain only to have it fall again, or maybe have to write clue after clue for OREO each one original or you will fall in a vat of acid.
@SP Yes, this was a great lesson in "don't give up too easily". I was sure the Swedish-American Porizkova would have a first name that was beyond my ability to guess. Then it turned out to be a nicely behaved American name. Likewise, though it took me forever to see STRONGSTOMACH, I did have the STRONG part early on. But PANDACARS, LOUDSHIRT, MARLSTONE, MATEINONE, and DIRTYNAME makes up one of the greatest "centers" of any puzzle I've ever seen. I had almost nothing in the middle for most of my solve.
@SP This was my experience with this puzzle too, and many others. For years I thought I could only finish a Saturday by looking stuff up. Often, I'd get stuck early on and look something up so I could get a foothold. Or I'd look up a clue or two at the end to finish up. Then I read here in the comments someone who said he thought every puzzle was doable but you just have to be patient and keep working at it. I decided to try it and, lo and behold, I can indeed finish almost every puzzle by myself, even when they seem insurmountable, like this one.
@SP I would say the opposite. Yesterday was an easy Friday and much better for new solvers to stick with. It still took me about 50 minutes. I found todays level of difficulty is just irritating. I’m not exaggerating when I say there is not a single clue that I thought was clever. Just grudging acceptance that they could fit the answers. Enjoyable day for the experienced folks, and that’s fine, but not worth sticking with. And I spent nearly an hour doing a slow reveal with the help to still get as many as I could without the help.
@SP I happened to get a ton of these right off the bat--RIGVEDA, DOGBREATH, MATEINONE, GOREY, ECTOPLASM--and this was still hard for me!
@SP I, too, started with MATE IN TWO. It really is the "better" answer (except for the annoying fact that it doesn't fit with the crosses). MATE IN ONE chess problems are really not worthy of a Saturday.
Ye gods, I did it! I was able to complete the puzzle on my own, with just two post-hoc lookups to confirm my educated guesses of PAULINA and FONTANE. The last square I filled in, with much confusion, was the crossing of MA_LSTONE and GO_EY. I've never heard of either of the entries. Having run the alphabet I arrived at an R there. I checked what MARL STONE is called in Polish: it's "margiel", and I'm unfamiliar with that, too, even though geography (which includes geology) was one of my fave subjects at school 🤷🏽. The accumulation of proper names and trivia in the middle of the grid was almost too much for me to handle, so I'm really proud of not giving in to the temptation to Google my way out of there. The NW and SE corners I found tough, too, and I filled them in in pencil. The only area I thought was relatively easy was the NE. I enjoyed the solve. It felt like a proper Saturday to me - very hard, almost impossibly so, but ultimately doable with an open mind. The clueing was appropriately misleading without being obnoxiously opaque. Nice.
@Andrzej That's the same square, and pretty much the same experience i had with that square. Mentally running, the alphabet, somehow the R just felt right. I would imagine that will be a much commented on cross.
@Andrzej Alphabet run on same square. SE first to fall, then SW, NW, center (except that one square), and finally NE.
Marlstone crossed with author of "Gashlycrumb Tinies"? Seriously???
@David Johnson If you know Gorey's work at all, this just sounds like something he would write. I'd never heard of that piece but guessed his name.
@David Johnson Yes, seriously. Welcome to Saturday. Stop complaining.
So that's what passing a kidney stone feels like.
@LBG 😂😂😂 I believe I've compared my prostate biopsies to some puzzles.
@LBG "Kidney stONE" would have made for a nice answer to "Channel blocker", if it had fit. Future constructors take note.
This was my favorite type of puzzle: the kind I nearly despaired of completing… but soldiered on to hear the music. So satisfying! We all have our idiosyncratic knowledge bases— I was unfamiliar with CLEM and FONTANE, but was somewhat surprised when others were stumped by GOREY or the stunningly beautiful PAULINA Porizkova. Not to diss those who may have struggled with those answers, or to pat myself on the back for knowing them, but I find it fascinating how much clever folks’ “gimmes” can differ! What I do find disheartening is those who seemingly resent the inclusion of anything/anyone they have not personally encountered. All of us have areas of ignorance, and (hopefully!) areas of expertise. And we all should be willing to own our ignorance, and be grateful for what we can learn from these puzzles. Thanks, Kameron, for some fun worthy of a Saturday!
@Darcey O’D I love to learn new trivia. I had never heard of PAULINA or GOREY and the first entry I made at all when working through the Across clues was PANDA CAR. In the end there were quite a few new TIL moments for me in this puzzle
@Darcey O’D Well said. Maybe not so much on Mondays, but every day I encounter unknowns in the puzzle. It is part of the game.
Anyone care to join the RIGVEDA and GOREY Society? We meet monthly to compare and contrast texts from these two classic sources. From a recent meeting: “Lover of song, may these our songs on every side encompass thee: Strengthening thee of lengthened life, may they be dear delights to thee.” “M is for Maud who was swept out to sea, N is for Neville who died of ennui.”
Great puzzle! One of those ones where I thought I was done for on the first pass but it slowly came together. The clue for DOGBREATH was my favorite. Crossing MARLSTONE with GOREY was pretty mean though, had to run the alphabet on that one.
I, for one, would prefer that the New Yorker constructors stay where they are more easily ignored. This was more trivia quiz than crossword.
@Boris Yes! It was wonderful. I got it done with no lookups or anything. It was sweet torture. There were so many answers that I had never heard of. Still, it all filled in.
Boris, Did you miss Caitlin's "he has 18 previous slippery, thorny Saturday grids?" KAC has been a NYT constructor since 2014.
@Boris And I wish the US Weekly solvers would stay where the puzzles consistently make them feel just as clever as they like, rather than whining about NYT Saturday puzzles that put up a tiny bit of a fight ;) Great one from KAC, btw!
@Boris I, for one, would prefer that solvers who aren’t yet up to a proper Saturday just work to improve rather than complaining.
@Boris Somehow I disagree (but maybe because somewhere in my brain I heard of GOREY though I had no idea what he did). Lots of weird names I had never heard of but with a lot of pencilling it worked out!
Well, hello KAC. Hello to no-knows, misdirects, wit, humor, a slew of answers never seen in the box before, and a junk-free grid despite seas of white. To be more specific: • Delightful and interesting answers – DOG BREATH, PANDA CARS, GANG PLANK, LOUD SHIRT, DIRTY NAME, HOTLANTA, STRONG STOMACH. • That astounding stagger-stack of seven answers that not only includes five NYT answer debuts, but two vertical answers that cross the entire stack – that are debuts as well! What? Huh? And the thing you can’t quantify – that unmistakable KAC personality that inhabits the air around you as you uncover squares. My brain got to “Whee!” in one splat-fill area, and, in another, got to gloriously grind at an impervious block of diamond until (cue angelic chorus) the tiniest sliver of light emerged. Cameron, you are an original with remarkable talent. Your puzzles astound, entertain, and wow me every time. Thank you so much for this one!
Oops -- Should be "Kameron", not "Cameron" in the last paragraph. Sorry, sir!
Excellent Saturday. Gave me a workout. Although it's infuriating to read that Kameron designed this puzzle in just over twice the time it took me to solve it!
Finally, we seem tp be getting NYT-worthy puzzle a few days a week. I could not be more pleased. And a gentle suggestion to those unable to complete these: Do what the rest of us did and use them as a learning device and add to your vocabulary by whatever means you choose. Since I started doing puzzles years ago, the NYT was legendary for being the most challenging. So like just about everything in life, it's almost impossible to start at the top. I promise, invest the time and your solves will become more meaningful and rewarding.
This is the kind of puzzle that I used to find very intimidating. (And sometimes still do, to be honest.) With such distinct sections, you can’t rely on crosses to get you from one area to another. But I’ve learned to take a deep breath and plunge in, because sometimes just a little knowledge and a few lucky guesses are all you need to get started. For me, these were BAR BETS and DOG BREATH (big leap of faith) in the NE, SOAP STARS , GOREY and PAULINA in the middle, RONAN and TSARS in the SW, and ECTOPLASM and BEER MAT in the SE. From there, it was a process of intuition highlighted by amusing finds. (HEADPHONE! GANGPLANK! And what’s cuter than a PANDA CAR?) This is why I come here.
I nearly gave up in total frustration after 55 minutes with only two-thirds of the puzzle done. Stuck with it, got some late help from a family member and heard the happy music after 1:28. Ultimately had fun.
I thought the puzzle was challenging, clever, and fair. A perfect Saturday.
Finally managed to complete it in over one hour but it was a pretty unenjoyable one hour. I usually love a good Saturday challenge but today, a lot of the fill and cluing felt like it was made difficult for difficulty's sake. Anyway, serves me right for constantly complaining about recent weekend puzzles being too easy.
@Rahul Interesting. Your second paragraph precisely describes last Saturday for me. Today's by contrast was good hard (quiet, Andrzej) in every way.
@Rahul definitely was harder but fun too
@Rahul Making things difficult, especially through clever cluing, is a standard, if not necessary, part of a Saturday puzzle, which are supposed to be the most difficult puzzles of the week. The constructor could've come up with a straightforward clue for BAR BETS, but what would be the fun of that???
@Rahul I think for many of us, this kind of challenge (and last week’s barnburner) don’t occur as “usually” as they used to, or as we would like. I’d venture to suggest that if you “usually” like a Saturday challenge but this felt out of the ordinary, that may reflect the disappointing trend of weekend puzzles getting easier. Having said that, happy to hear that you have been one of those saying you wanted more of a challenge — and even happier that you (and the rest of us) seem to have gotten our wish at least temporarily!
I’m sorry but barbets over Bartabs is so dumb, talk about outdated and lame. Even as a Saturday’s, too many obscure and niche terms that are reaches. Hard only due to obscurity is boring and not satisfying
@Cliff Shaw, that's it. Let it all out.
@Cliff Shaw Bar bets "outdated"? Ever been in a bar?
Would there have been complaints if 13 A was clued as [Places to put barbets] and 16 A was clued as [Barbets secret weapon]? I would have liked that. My thanks to Caitlin for pointing out that connection. This is my favorite type of puzzle. It had many things I know nothing about but the answers could be reasoned out. It wasn't as tough as some of the older KAC offerings, but still put up a good fight. I'm a happy solver today.
Nancy J., I second your second paragraph (as I wrote last night).
I hope that folks unfamiliar with the work of Edward Gorey consider checking it out. They could start with The Doubtful Guest or The Ghastlycrumb Tinies. Gorey was unique. I enjoyed the puzzle today as much as everyone else. It took me every minute of an hour but in the end even the NW (SeaTac country) yielded to persistence.
@Paul Turner Right? I love his Gothic style - a gimme for me. I also live near MARL Pit Road, so I had a leg up in that area, although I remembered PAULINA as Czech, not Swedish.
This was insanely hard. No idea how I finished this without any lookups. The references and cluing were sheer brutality. I’m going back to bed.
Very fine Saturday puzzle. Solved without assistance, but took 34 minutes. Didn't know GOREY, but MARLSTONE seemed clear from the clue. Never heard of a MUDLARK and didn't know CLEM, but the L seemed the only choice for that crossing. Didn't know FONTANE, but the crosses all came easily. Similarly for RONAN. Getting DOGBREATH/RIGVEDA instantly gave me confidence that this one wouldn't be too bad. DIRTYWORD rather than DIRTYNAME slowed me down a bit. "Walk on water?" for GANGPLANK was cute. Thanks for a nice Saturday puzzle.
@Xword Junkie But, by definition, a gangplank is not a walk *on* water, it's a walk *over* water. Sorry, but misleading and inaccurate clue.
It's interesting to see here in the Comments those for whom Edward GOREY was a gimme and those for whom he was a complete unknown. I have long loved his "Gashlycrumb Tinies", a tremendously eccentric abecedarium, and there was a time when I knew them all by heart. For those who don't know it, I encourage you to take a look. Its humor and aesthetic are idiosyncratic, but there are those of us who love it: <a href="https://onehundredpages.wordpress.com/2015/03/17/the-gashlycrumb-tinies-a-very-gorey-alphabet-book" target="_blank">https://onehundredpages.wordpress.com/2015/03/17/the-gashlycrumb-tinies-a-very-gorey-alphabet-book</a>/ For those who love it, I'll ask you to reply with your favorite letter of GOREY's alphabet. Mine? "N is for Neville who died of ennui." Followed closely by, "B is for Basil assaulted by bears."
@The X-Phile "T is for Titus who flew into bits." Actually, Neville is also my favorite but he was taken, and the picture for Titus is a masterpiece of suspense.
@The X-Phile Yeah, Neville has to be mine, too. "S is for Susan who perished of fits" used to be a favorite. I realize now that Gorey might have meant something medical, which would not be at all funny. But as a youngster I interpreted "fits" to be fits of anger, or temper tantrums. Which I was unfortunately known for. I thought that dramatically dying from one might make my point better than whatever I was doing.
@The X-Phile I was in the gimme crowd - an avid fan, when he was in his heyday.
It's interesting to me that we all love Neville, and now I want to find out why. Neville: mildly amusing, rah-ther British-sounding name. Ennui: foreign intrigue? (I think I learned the word because of its appeance here.) dying of ennui: that's not really possible, so it's not so messy The image: so simple; all we see is Neville's eyes. Poor lad. Titus, on the other hand, has that lovely expectant, "I wonder what could possibly be in here?" look. "Don't open it, Titus!" Alas, we're too late.... And @Susan, I think your original interpretation of Susan's fits is the more likely one, given the illustration.
So late to the party today! My two gimmes were RIG VEDA and (Edward) GOREY--and are they so different? "O Agni, radiant One, to whom the holy oil is poured, burn up Our enemies whom fiends protect." --Rig Veda 1.12.15 "Q is for Quentin who sank in a mire./ R is for Rhoda, consumed by a fire." --GCT, 17-18 Thank you, KAC!
Ack, it's KAC! Welcome back, Kameron. The only two things I was 100 percent positive about on my first pass through were RONAN and PAULINA (was not thrown by Swedish). Gradually everything else revealed itself, but twas a battle. Perhaps my favorite leap was DOGBREATH, which reminded me of Belker from Hill Street Blues*. *couldn't find a clip of him saying it. :( Let's be careful out there.
@Vaer PAULINA is Czech, no??? But not a problem. How many models are there named "Porizkova"?
Nice and challenging Saturday puzzle!! I am always baffled when people come here and complain about the amount of trivia etc that comes with a Saturday puzzle. The same complaints from a week ago about how the Saturday puzzle was way too easy and not challenging enough. Saturdays are for learning new things and words. Saturdays are for chewing and thinking and getting stumped. Saturdays are for… I guess in am going to give in and look this one up. Saturdays are for Today I learned… This puzzle had a beautiful symmetry in design.
I forgot to thank Kameron for the well designed and challenging grid. I know it’s not easy.
@Dominic - Most of the newer people here think there is a requirement that they find some way to trash the puzzle. More often than not, they just reveal their own shortcomings.
I almost never do this, but instead of looking for a section I could solve, today I went clue by clue looking for ANY WORD that could get me into the puzzle. I got in at MIMOSA -- all the way towards the bottom. I'm too tired now to list all the things I didn't know. I'm sure they're mostly the same things you didn't know. Writeovers: I had some sort of --T heART for the foam designs and PRAIRIE before THE WEST for where the wagons went. I misread BERTH places for BIRTH places and therefore had VAGINAS where MARINAS should have gone. Don't ask. I thought the channel blocker would be something like a gallSTONE, when it was HEADPHONE. At one point I almost put in HEADSTONE when HEAD was coming in, but it didn't fit the clue. Don't ask. I ended up not being able to finish the NW. Please don't ask me about 2D (what a DOOK of an answer!) and 3D. I'm in no mood to discuss that fiendish section of the puzzle. If you bring it up, I'll shoot my ECTOPLASM at you and call you a DIRTY NAME.
@Nancy My first guess for "Channel blocker" was EAR WAX. Completely wrong, but we were both thinking anatomically, and at least I was in the right part of the body.
@Nancy LATTE ART very often is a hEART. Other people's one liners get posted, but mine not always.
@Nancy 😂 I love when you're in a feisty mood.
Great Saturday puzzle! Difficult and fun. So little to get on the first pass. Ah, the Southeast gave me a couple of entries. AMIE and RONAN, and then DARTH and TSARS. OK, I'm on my way. But all these long answers, and I haven't a "clue". The clues are too tricky! But you can get part of them! Something SNAKE and something STONE and something STOMACH (Why isn't it "cast iron" STOMACH? Keep working on it! "Nevertheless, she persisted." The beautifully clued pair of things that get "settled atop stools" and things that can "knock you out". Mwah! Chef's kiss perfection. And, after hard work, we are rewarded with the music. A big thank you to Edward GOREY, who provided me with a major entry into the HEART of the puzzle. His "Gashlycrumb Tinies" was a poster on my dorm wall in day's long past. <a href="https://onehundredpages.wordpress.com/2015/03/17/the-gashlycrumb-tinies-a-very-gorey-alphabet-book" target="_blank">https://onehundredpages.wordpress.com/2015/03/17/the-gashlycrumb-tinies-a-very-gorey-alphabet-book</a>/ Great puzzle. Thanks, Kameron Austin Collins! Give us more like this!
HEART is capitalized in my comment because, when I was making "educated" guesses, I thought "Foam design" was going to be Something-HEART, and I was still thinking that HEART had been part of the puzzle. I re-parsed it later. gave myself a dope slap, and went back to work.
Reading through the comments, I notice that many writers think this puzzle was too demanding and maybe even got fed up. On the other hand, many found it challenging and appreciate that. As a relative newbie, I had to look a lot of things up. But I don't mind. It's like taking a course. I have to say, I may now know more about magpies than I'll ever need to know. (And I actually never found MUDLARK through my research.) (I also was able to figure out a lot of interesting and fun answers.) However, in yesterday's puzzle, I learned a new word: LOESS. As a gazillion-year organic gardener, I'm surprised I never heard of this term before. And I hope to learn more about LOESS and its importance in the natural world. I wonder how LOESS compares to my studies of the Dust Bowl. Here is an amazing movie by Ken Burns: <a href="https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2359898" target="_blank">https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2359898</a>/ <a href="https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2359900/?ref_=tt_ov_ep_nx" target="_blank">https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2359900/?ref_=tt_ov_ep_nx</a> Also, how does LOESS relate to those sandstorms off of Africa that they say are the "ignition" of those yearly Atlantic hurricanes? Much to learn.
@lucky13 Loved your comment. Wish most “newbies” would follow your lead and revel in the challenge (and the learnings it can bring) rather than letting their frustration lead to complaints about how difficult the puzzle is!
Humbling. [Exit stage left, slowly, head down, slumped shoulders, à la Charlie Brown after being decimated by Lucy yet again.]
@sotto voce 29 D A is for Amy who fell down the stairs, B is for Basil, assaulted by bears … Y is for Yorick whose head was knocked in, Z is for Zillah who drank too much gin… And S is for Sotto who succumbed to chagrin.
I don't mind hard puzzles if they are fun. This one, like seemingly all of this constructor's puzzles, was not fun.
@Eric It looks like you are in the minority. YMMV, and this time it did.
@Ericagree agreed. I don’t like looking clues up, and if I have to look up more than half, I’m out. There is a fine line between challenging and absurd, and this author doesn’t get it.
No one was more surprised than I by the happy music, without even any flyspeckiing. I was scrambling the whole time, especially in the center. SOAPSTARS, HEADPHONE, STRONGSTOMACH...these were brilliant, in my opinion. Nice Saturday. Easy enough for someone like me to get it, hard enough to please almost everyone here. Doesn't get much better than that.
@Francis "hard enough to please almost everyone here" He he
This one was quite a workout, especially after KAC's last puzzle was uncharacteristically easy. If I had the luxury of leaving a puzzle undone and coming back to it later, I may have been able to complete it. But in my set ways, the puzzle is the next-to-last thing I do before calling it a night (er, early morning), in the kitchen, pen and paper, hovering over my warm milk and a couple of meds. But I'm a creature of habit. I did start it a bit earlier, knowing that historically, a Friday would take me longer, and in that first run I got very little. I knew Gorey, because when I lived in NY we were fortunate to have joined a club that gave us free tickets to B'way and off-B'way shows, and we were there for the Opening - and Closing night of Gorey Stories, a storied Broadway flop. I think we left during intermission, it was that bad. I was so pleased that my diligence got three of the quadrants and the center filled in, albeit in a lengthy process. BARBETS was a gimme, until it wasn't, and it was that NW that finally did me in. I had no knowledge of RIGVEDA, and AVIARIES and GEDS just wouldn't come to me. But my last act before closing down my computer session is to come here and read the column and comments, so I don't have the good fortune of going back to give the puzzle one more try, since I've seen all the answers. As dejected as I am for the rare occasion of not have completed a puzzle, I'm thrilled that for once this was a worthy challenge. Hoping for more of them.
@Times Rita In addition to the PBS Mystery intros, I know Gorey because way back in 1986 American Ballet Theatre presented a piece called Murder, which had set design and costumes by him with Barishnikov in the lead role. I recall it wasn't overly dance-y. And yes, I had to do a little digging to refresh my memory about some of this
@Times Rita Great post. Captures my feelings last weekend quite nicely. I sometimes try to put on a brave front, but dejection really is the right word when it happens? "Why couldn't I have seen the clue in that light while I was trying to solve it?"
This felt like an extended inside joke that I was not in on. Not my jam today.
This was a really tough one for me. Alas, I was not able to finish it without looking up a few obscure names (I did remember Paulina though!). There were some inscrutable crosses and many diabolical clues, but I really enjoyed the challenge. So goes my love/hate relationship with the Saturday crossword, lol
Haven’t been on here in a while. I started last night and finished this morning. I started off the bat with BARtabS but the crosses fixed it quickly. I filled the grid starting NW, then SW, NE and finally SE. I knew HOTLANTA as my sister moved to the area a few years ago and thought DOG BREATH was clever. I really enjoyed solving this one. Thanks, KAC! I also enjoyed the Midi from my fave husband and wife team.
My goodness what an enjoyable Saturday. More, more!!
Are there so few Cars fans here? Impossible for me not to think of Ric Ocasek without his partner Paulina Porizkova in the 80s and 90s. They were everywhere, weren't they? Lovely Saturday. First-pass scratched surface led to fear of last Saturday and having my streak broken at six. But then, inch by inch, slowly I turned, etc. Upon solving I had a second of satori. What makes a clue/fill set acceptably obscure? If a certain subset of humans in the world might well be expected to find it unobscure based on education, livelihood, culture, religion, etc. and not based on niche obsessions. Take MARLSTONE. I might whine it's a TIL but there must be thousands of contractors and engineers and construction workers who would know it immediately. So, good obscure. As opposed to last Saturday's Back to the Future II clue whose fill was UCLA. Niche niche niche. Not even rabid, generic cinephiles would know this one. Bad obscure. I therefore propose that if the fill is knowable only to frothing becostumed fans and first-online (on line) purchasers of tickets to its convention, it is to be regarded as bad obscure. Yes, yes "rabid" and "nice" are squishily defined here, but the gist should be clear. Obscure knowledge gleaned from somewhere in mainstream life = good obscure. Obscure knowledge gleaned from fringe pursuits like Back to the Future board games and dating sites = bad obscure.
@Matt Hundreds of millions of people use dating apps/sites. Your "distinction' is strangely arbitrary for how open you usually seem to be.
@Matt I am surprised by the number of people who are unfamiliar with Paulina Porizkova. In her day, she was on a level with Christie Brinkley or Cindy Crawford, although it’s possible people don’t remember them, either. The “Swedish” tag may have caused some confusion— she was born Czechoslovakian and later emigrated. I didn’t know that part, either. But I do remember her and Ric Ocasek! It seems she was just what he needed. (Until she wasn’t.)
@Matt The other thing MARLSTONE has going for it is 2 or 3 crosses can give you STONE. A reasonable guess for something related to concrete. That’s more than 1/2 of the letters. The R was my last puzzle letter which I guessed shortly after excluding vowels.
@Matt I don’t think this analysis of good vs bad obscure is very objective!
@Matt It's interesting to think about the issue of "good vs. bad obscurities", but, unsurprisingly, I don't agree with your analysis. Obviously, each solver has a unique history, which leads to different stuff that is easy and "trivial". If something is unknown to me, but well-known to some subset of solvers, does that make it good/acceptable? Just about every good, hard puzzle has something that I don't have a clue about: a person, an archaic fact, a song that I've never heard of. Some of these are fun to learn, some I forget as soon as the puzzle is done. Thankfully, I can almost always infer the answer from the crosses. But does that make such answers bad? I wouldn't say so. As for your UCLA example: I agree that it was a bit of movie "trivia" that even a movie buff would be hard-pressed to remember, but, upon thought, you could recognize that "Washington" in the clue was not referencing the "father of our nation" nor the capital of the USA, but a West Coast university. And from there, you need to think of a four-letter school that might play against UofW. UCLA was a reasonable guess....for me.
So the other day, some of us were talking about synchronicity. Today, I’ve experienced it in reverse. I’m staying at a B & B this weekend, and did the puzzle last night, straining to dislodge the name of Edward GOREY from the deepest recesses of my brain. Today I discover that this place has a jigsaw puzzle of one of GOREY’s art works available for guests to do.
@Steve L GOREY was one of the few gimmes for me in today's puzzle. His "Gashlycrumb Tinies" holds a special place in my misused adolescence. "N is for Neville who died of Ennui." <a href="https://onehundredpages.wordpress.com/2015/03/17/the-gashlycrumb-tinies-a-very-gorey-alphabet-book" target="_blank">https://onehundredpages.wordpress.com/2015/03/17/the-gashlycrumb-tinies-a-very-gorey-alphabet-book</a>/
@Steve L What @The X-Phile said. Plus, you can't be from the Cape and not know about Edward Gorey! He's a hometown hero in his own quirky way. <a href="https://edwardgoreyhouse.org" target="_blank">https://edwardgoreyhouse.org</a>/ If you want to visit, the village of Yarmouthport also has a botanic garden and classic old homes along Route 6A, plus a stunning boardwalk over the marshes. If it's open, a stop at Hallet's for a frappe at their classic soda fountain is a must (when they're open), or lunch at Jack's Outback, which was my grandma's favorite spot back in the day... Lighthouse Keeper's Pantry makes delicious goods, too!
For me this puzzle was a real workout, befitting a Saturday. Tough but satisfying to finish.
Wow. Now THAT was a Saturday puzzle! I have to admit, my heart was in my throat when I saw this was a KAC puzzle. On a Saturday, no less. And sure enough, I had almost nothing on the first pass. No surprise. Put it away for the night and opened it up in the morning. To my utter surprise, I started filling in some pure guesses in the SE and actually filled in the quadrant. But I had to battle for every freaking square. I gradually worked my way through the other parts of the it was a mystery everywhere, but I eventually got the happy music. No lookups, but a lot of pure guesses (looking at you, RIGVEDA). Still finished about three minutes under my average time. Moral of the story: Keep in mind that the constructors *want* you to be able to solve the puzzle, they’re not just playing a cruel joke on you. Make some guesses. Take some chances. The clues are not meant to be readily gettable by everyone. That’s what Monday puzzles are for. I loved it. Welcome back, Saturday. We missed you.
Hi Kameron, Thanks for another fun Saturday. I'm glad to see a bit more bite here than in your last Saturday (in March), but I'm not making any BARBETS on we get a real SCARE from you. HASTA luego.
This was harder than any of the APTESTS I took in high school, though I did all mine as Sophomore and Junior, none as a Senior. I had a Natick with GOREY/MARLSTONE, which was exacerbated by my conflicting belief that 37D was DARTH and 37A was bIRThNAME. I tried everything to resolve it until I realized that the bird was called MUDLARK and not MaDLARK because NEaROsurgery isn't a thing. One of the AP classes I took was AP Chem. One of my favorite concepts was that of a limiting REACTANT. (If you are making water from 3 moles of hydrogen and 2 moles of oxygen, the hydrogen is the limiting reactiant). But I use that phrase a lot in non chemistry usage. For example, when I travel, I usually maintain a very tight schedule. Let's say I have a 7 PM dinner reservation and I'm going to a National Historic Site that closes at 5 PM. If it's a 3 hour drive from the NHS to the restaurant, the dinner reservation is the limiting reactant. I need to plan my day around arriving at the restaurant by 7 PM. But if it's a 1 hour drive, the NHS is the limiting reactant. I need to plan my day around arriving at the NHS before 5 PM
@Steven M. I wish I had a nickel for every hour I spend trying to get 18-year-old Tennessee students to understand limiting reactants. I really wish I did. That's just about all they paid for the arts and sciences.
I am not a fast solver and if I posted my actual times you would see that, but I do take satisfaction in completing today's puzzle in 53% less than average time. When I first saw the grid design, I would not have predicted that. Some fresh fill.
Very difficult, but generally fair. DOGBREATH was terrific, and for that I'll overlook AVONREP. Maybe people use that term today, but for me it's always been Avon Lady.
The word [informally] in the clue led me to not expect the expected "Lady" in the answer, which in any case I think would be anachronistic with the clue's ["side hustle"].
@Esmerelda I was torn on the new kea-loa of AVIARIES - ApIARIES ---- bees are fliers, too! Thus I had APO____ for 2 down and was thinking ApOstle as the original side hustle sales job. But surely Forbes wouldn't be that irreverent.
@Esmerelda "Ding Dong, Avon calling!" I didn't know they were in Canada as well. Oh, and how's the traffic been, with the Formula 1 circus in town? I'm missing it this year, sadly.
The title sequence to the Mystery series on PBS featured a delightful animation of Edward Gorey’s art. <a href="https://youtu.be/CwrIZds3nVM?si=pK7XxLAvqY1tY_kG" target="_blank">https://youtu.be/CwrIZds3nVM?si=pK7XxLAvqY1tY_kG</a>
No one more surprised than me when I finally solved this one. Great job!