While the theme was great (I love rhetoric and logic), some of the fill was truly awful. I mean really, IZZATSO and YHEAR?!?
@Allen In fairness, NBAERS stank on ice too. Emu Stars on Ice Capades.
@Allen I filled in IZZATSO and YHEAR on my first pass, knowing that I could expect some of those. Truly awful? Pretty harsh for a cleverly constructed puzzle that went from abstruse to silly and back again.
"But I saw that bird! That's why I had a great day!" "No, that's a post hawk ergo propter hawk." ("Oh. Must be an ornithological fallacy.")
@Mike That is asburd, it flies in the face of logic.
@Mike I'm doing hand exercises post carpal tunnel correction. I am supposed to do 2 sets three times a day, with 1 set consisting of TEN repetitions. (Then there are 10 'tendon glides' for my cubital tunnel workout.) In your honor I am adding an extra position to the carpal tunnel hand/finger poses..... Guess which one it is! Bird bird bird, bird is the word....
"The fill in this puzzle is great!" IZZATSO?
I'm pretty forgiving about stretches in these, but IZZATSO and YHEAR are a little out there especially given their placement. Combine that with even the constructor admitting he had never heard of NO TRUE SCOTSMAN before and this was not an overly hard solve but a little annoying.
@Eric NO TRUE SCO_SMAN? I guessed the answer. What else was there? C'mon, Emu. Walk on by. (No offense intended)
The theme clues were nice. The fill was dreadfully annoying--creative spelling, multiple ups, and abbreviations without warnings.
@Shelley Agreed, especially on the un-warned abbreviations. For a puzzle that was otherwise quite easy, there were some rather clunky spots.
@Shelley I agree. I didn't like Night ____ (bird) because even though I'm a birder I thought the answer would have to use "bird" as in 75 across. And the random abbreviations etc. What do you mean by "multiple ups"?
As a TRUE SCOTSMAN, albeit one without prior knowledge of this logical fallacy, it's the other Scotland-centric reference I take issue with. I know it's a crossword answer as old as time, but NO TRUE SCOTSMAN (from Aberdeen or otherwise) would issue NAE as a denial. Asked "Angus, did you do this?" the answer would be "No" or possibly "Naw", but never NAE. NAE is exclusively a negative modifier, you'd hear in place of 'no' in phrases like "no good" or "no bother". Will crossword compilers heed this advice? NAE chance.
@Duncan Thanks for clearing that up. Now, could you chime in on the question of what it is that Scotsmen wear under their kilts? I heard a good joke about that topic many years ago from an Aussie co-worker, but it probably would not get past the moderators, so I'll just chuckle to myself.
I like the theme but someone needs to go to jail for IZZAT
After watching that West Wing clip I long for a government as smart as that one or at least a TV show as good as that was.
@perrocaliente I remember a nod to the Bushes with, “Crime, boy, I dunno”. Yet if Aaron Sorkin had to satirize DJT, MTG, and the Supreme Court I can’t help but wonder if his heart would break.
I had a truly unpleasant time with this one. I'm familiar with the logic but it just was not fun.
@Joya I think I quit reading the comments -- and trying the puzzle -- too soon last night! I was about 3/4 done and not having fun, so I popped over here. All the super positive, dewy-eyed posts were too much, so I walked away. I swear, I don't think there was anything but praise... but the last straw turns out to be just two posts before yours. I also have no idea why, after finally completing it this afternoon, I continued to scroll and browse my way back to here. But I'm glad I did, if only to be able to reply to you MY THOUGHTS EXACTLY. Thank you! ✨
I liked the theme but personally found the fill to be unpleasant in places, especially for a non-American solver (GRAD gift and INSTA cart were inscrutable for poor European me, among others). But at least two people liked the puzzle so it was great 🤣
@Andrzej Don't worry. I've lived here for many decades and have never, ever heard the purported phrase "grad gift". I don't think it's real. /Emus are real, and this forum eating random posts is annoying
Well, I was charmed by this theme. It felt erudite and so un-crossword-theme-like as to be rebellious. Rebellious and erudite, these are two of my happy buttons. Then, three of the theme answers were so familiar to me that they popped right in with few crosses, which felt good. One of them I’d heard of in the past but couldn’t retrieve right off, but when I finally did, that felt good. One of them I’d never heard of before and setting it down thanks to crosses felt mighty good. And that huge spanner across the middle, the Latin one, oh, I kinda remembered it but didn’t know it exactly and no way was I going to enter squares with confidence, so watching it take shape, with the help of crossing answers, and having it become clearer and clearer, until it did fill in and I knew it was right – well, that was a triumph. The theme was the bones of this puzzle, and when the bones charm me, all nits fly out the window, and little joys, like [Title awarded after a match?] for MRS, and [Gift tied together with string] for LEI, both lovely, and both original for answers that have appeared hundreds of times – become amplified. Thank you for making this, John. It buoyed my day!
@Lewis Yeah! That was a really great description of my experience, too!
@Lewis - I had a student from the Aloha State who, on the occasion of her graduation, gifted me a lei made entirely of seeds, pods, and dried leaves - which means I still treasure it, decades later. I love that lei!
@Lewis - yes, erudite and rebellious - that is the goal of the folks at Times Games, to make their puzzle unlikeable. 🤷🤦♂️
Hoping for a "straw man", but that's OK - because POST HOC ERGO PROPTER HOC getting into a puzzle means it's great, right?
@Brian CIRCULAR REASONING was first for me
@Brian I was betting my life STRAW MAN would be in here somewhere...
@Brian Like Caitlin said, that one was a gimme for us "West Wing" fans!
I've gotten as far as 35D, and won't get a chance to complete the puzzle until after work, but I wanted to share this bit of doggerel by Morris Bishop: MUSEUM THOUGHTS Portrait of a Lady (c. 75 A.D.) Julia to the barber went And got herself a permanent. Since the perm was unsurpassed, "Fine!" she said. "But will it last?" (I approximate the sense Of "Estne vere permanens?") Then the vehement coiffeur, Warmly reassuring her, Guaranteed with confidence The permanence of permanents. Rome is gone and all her pride, Still the dainty curls abide; Venus, Mars, and Jove are dead, Still remains the lovely head. Let a thousand years go by, Let our gods and empires die, Time will never set a term To the life of Julia's perm. Mundo semper erit gratus Iste capitis ornatus. A good morning to all my fellow Wordplayers.
@Bill I appreciate your efforts, and I'm sure many will understand.... ...but sadly, there is a mental fortress which prevents me from getting very far into verse. I think I get it...maybe I get it ...I really hope I might yet get it... I don't get it. But I appreciate the effort!
@Bill meant to add, first published in 1953, in a publication which runs its hardest puzzles on Mondays.
Just to note: having actually covered sled dog racing in a prior live in television, MUSH is not used as a command for sled dogs. GEE and HAW are used for left and right, and HIKE is used for forward.
@RP I'd actually like some elaboration here. I can believe MUSH is just a cultural aproprisim but is there somewhere that came from?
@RP If it's good enough for Yukon Cornelius it's good enough for the NY Times and me.
@RP 😂 More proof that everything, and I mean everything we "know" is untrue or highly distorted.
IZZATSO might be the worst crossword answer I’ve even seen. As bad as that Connections “C +BIRD” category. I don’t know if puzzle malpractice is a thing, but it ought to be.
I love this puzzle! After listening to a certain Presidential candidate's arguments, I think you could find most of these logical fallacies. Every school system should guarantee that every student gets trained to recognize these.
I’d love to know what the editors thought the feedback on YHEAR and IZZATSO was going to be. The cleverness of the theme does not excuse the stench of some of the rest. Made it by holding my nose.
Thought this was awful…guess I smell. The word “up” appears multiple times in the grid. I hate that.
@GT I usually don’t notice that kind of thing, but I did tonight. The last UP I entered was UP TO IT, and I hesitated a bit at that one.
Very apropos puzzle at a time when half the country is incapable of critical thinking.
I spent most of the day lying semi-comatose on my couch, too hot to do housework, too hot to garden (except for the short span between 5 and 7 am when the temp was tolerable). I finally used what little energy I had to drag myself upright, with the thought that at least I could do the Sunday crossword. What a delight! I must be a *real* crossword fan! Besides, the NYT liked it and published it, so I know it's great. I even felt a lot better after I finished it, so I think it also has healing properties! All kidding aside, I really enjoyed this one... once I unraveled the rather cryptic theme (I always forget to read the title page). I didn't even mind the fill most people are complaining about (double ZZ? Wth?), when I got it I laughed like a crazy person (it's the heat).
@Janine Or IZZIT? Maybe you're just nuts? When our son and his wife moved to Seattle (that city of cold climes and ever-present precipitation) there was a lot of upgrading to do on the 1920's house they bought. Besides having all of the wiring atrocities replaced/corrected, our son had a/c installed. They are truly grateful! (We saw a lot of this in NE Ohio, which considered itself 'naturally air-conditioned.' Right. Our first year there as a heat wave of 104 degrees for almost a week. Friends actually moved into a motel! When we built our own home, we had it super-insulated and included a/c....and never regretted it.
This was a terrrific puzzle. Sure there were some stretches in the fill, but the payback was an original and thought-provoking theme, and an enjoyable solve. Another logical fallacy relevant to the times: If you repeat a false statement enough times it becomes true. I don't know if there's a name for that one.
@Esmerelda : I call that one “proof by assertion”. QED
@Esmerelda POST SCHLOCK PROMPTER SCHLOCK no true emu
Perfect Sunday puzzle for me - really nice fill. Now to annoy my family by injecting POST HOC ERGO PROPTER HOC into conversation for the rest of the day…
When I was a kid, my dad brought home several games from the WFF-N-Proof company, including one called Propaganda, in which the game presented statements and players had to identify the fallacy or technique that appeared in the statement. He also gave me a book called How to Lie with Statistics, by Darrell Huff. I still have both, roughly sixty years later. So, thanks, John Ewbank, for a puzzle that reminded me of my father, gone 40 years this year.
@Joe - Loved those games. Introduced to them when just 8 or 9, when my father brought them home!
@Joe I too had a basic WFF-N-Proof set of cubes as a kid (my dad was an educational psychologist) and taught myself elementary logic with them. It’s no secret how I ended up as a crossword nerd.
As an old debate nerd who hasn’t had a chance to use “post hoc ergo propter hoc” since college, I thought this was spectacular. My favorite Sunday in ages.
"I flubbed that line. Maybe next time I should use the script." That's post hoc ergo prompter hoc.
I completed this begrudgingly but did not enjoy. I think the creator knew deep down this wasn’t going to land when he preempted us with going on record about his reactions to how some may feel. Odd and obscure clues and answers made this not nearly as enjoyable as I wanted and hoped this puzzle would be.
I wasn’t familiar with the “No True Scotsman” fallacy, so I Googled it, which led me to its Wikipedia entry: - <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman" target="_blank">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman</a> The first line from that page took me aback: “For the practice of wearing a kilt without undergarments, see True Scotsman” (which does indeed have its own Wikipedia entry). Reminds me of John Cleese introducing various Monty Python sketches with the line “And now for something completely different.”
@RichardZ thanks for this link. I wasn't familiar with it either.
@RichardZ I read that first line from the Wikipedia page to my husband. He was as amused by it as I was.
@RichardZ This thread reminded me of the joke about the curious tourist asking the elderly Scottish tour guide whether anything is worn under his kilt, to which he replies: Nae, everything under there works just fine!
This puzzle succeeded in doing one of the things I most want a puzzle to do -- which is to provoke my curiosity. It did so in spades, and I therefore found it one of the most entertaining Sunday puzzles in a long time. I adored the clues and knew they were all examples of one LOGICAL FALLACY or another. I hadn't, however, heard of all of their names. CIRCULAR REASONING, SLIPPERY SLOPE and CHERRY PICKING were easy, though I did need some crosses for all of them. APPEAL TO AUTHORITY is a familiar phrase to me, but not in that context. And NO TRUE SCOTSMAN and POST HOC ERGO PROPTER HOC (even though I studied Latin) were great big "Huh?s" to me. I'm assuming the latter means something like "after the fact reasoning". As for NO TRUE SCOTSMAN? The longer I sit here writing this, the longer it will be until I find out exactly what that means. And I'm dying of curiosity. So I'll finish this up right now. Great fun, John Ewbank. Based on the fun quotient plus the curiosity your puzzle provoked, I'm putting it into my running list for Puzzle of the Year.
I thought I at first I wasn’t going to like this one, but it ended up being one of my favorites. How different would society be if reasoning and philosophy were a part of more curriculums.
I practice the art (sure to gain you friends and appreciators) of pointing out logical fallacies when I see them. So NO TRUE SCOTSMAN went in immediately, and it was fun to look forward to the other funny fallacious theme clues. The revealer might instead have said “part of a social media post”, alas. Would that the logical fallacies one encounters there were as whimsical and obvious-to-all as the ones in this puzzle!
Well done, John. I enjoyed the theme (Fox’s business model, I believe) and the clueing. Nice puzzle for my post-bbq torpor.
In this world full of mis-information and dis-information, it's nice to be reminded of logical fallacies. Beautiful puzzle!
I really hated everything about this puzzle. Don’t know anything about the theme answers so there was no way to break through, especially since there’s so much trivia throughout in crossing, that I also didn’t know. Cluing is awkward, too. Dry.
This puzzle was really fun. I laughed out loud many times. It helped that I knew the logic terms, except for "No true Scotsman" (I thought it was filled in wrong, reading it as "Not rue Scotsman"). What a gem of a saying. Yes, there were a number of lookups (I really should have figured out NBAERS). It's supposed to be fun. The swerve between Latin phrases and misspelled slang clues was actually entertaining. Keeps a solver on their toes. And Tolkien clues are a bonus. More from this constructor, please!
@Natdegu I mentally doubled the first T in NO TRUE SCOTSMAN and struggled to make sense of a logical fallacy known as NOT TRUE, SCOTSMAN.
It’s very rare that I give up on a puzzle, but was just not feeling this one.
A wonderful Sunday challenge! It’s too bad some felt it necessary to insult the constructor. I did find the puzzle to be a challenge, but an enjoyable one. There were certainly some things I didn’t know right away, but the crosses were a big help in the areas where I needed them. I’m sure Mr. Ewbanks will not let the few complaints stop him from making more puzzles for us to enjoy. I hope to see more of his creations in future, and I’m sure we will.
Didn't do well on this one. Actually surprised that most seemed to find it quite easy. I can see a couple of things that were NEVER going to come to me - notably 65a. I'll have to defer to the majority on this one. Unusual puzzle find today. A Thursday from March 24, 2016 by David Niben-Lowell and Tom Pepper. Notable answer in that one: CIRCULARREASONINGMAKESNOSENSEBECAUSECIRCULARREASONINGMAKESNOSENSE Here's the Xword Info link: <a href="https://www.xwordinfo.com/Crossword?date=3/24/2016&g=16&d=A" target="_blank">https://www.xwordinfo.com/Crossword?date=3/24/2016&g=16&d=A</a> See you tomorrow. ..
@Rich in Atlanta Really? That makes no sense. Shouldn't it have been "circular reasoning makes no sense because it's circular"?
@Rich in Atlanta , I did very poorly as well, far too complicated for me sadly, but glad that so many really enjoyed it.
@Rich in Atlanta I racked up seventeen cheats, quite difficult for a Sunday. But I found it interesting none the less. I'm amazed by those who didn't need any cheats on this one. Google is my friend!
9/10. The themed entries were great. IZZATSO and YHEAR were very lame.
@N.E. Body -- Want to know why YHEAR didn't bother me? Because I didn't have it written in. I looked at "Capeesh" and saw an "!" and not a "?" at the end (have I complained about my deteriorating vision lately?) and thought to myself that it was the 2nd half of an exchange: "Capeesh?" "Capeesh!" And since I know nothing about the Pacemakers of pop fame and since GERRY could just as well have been GERRI, I wrote in with full confidence "I HEAR". Some might think of this as a DNF. I really don't. Is there a LOGICAL FALLACY I can employ to excuse my mistake? Hmmm.
A combination of a college logic course and too much time on bulletin boards made this breezy for me -- much closer to my Sunday PB than my Sunday average. Furthermore, someone who often pops up in my social media feeds goes by "post malone ergo propter malone" -- that's the main reason I remember the spelling of "propter." IZZATSO and YHEAR sound fine in my dialect (urban South with large doses of General American); make of that what you will.
@Kimble That describes my dialect! Those answers sounded fine to me, too. (please ignore these meaningless words for the emus so that my message will get through)
No true cruciverbalist expects the Sunday puzzle to be especially difficult. Cogito ergo some fun.
I liked this puzzle very much. I was familiar with the NOTRUESCOTSMAN fallacy among others and kinda grinned when I got that one. I got most of the ADHOC one but because of a wrong cross I didn't get the PROPTER part (which I kinda sorta semi-remembered but didn't fill in) for a bit.. I realize now I probably was familiar with that one mostly from having seen that West Wing episode. I loved the examples i.e. the clues, and other non-theme clues as well. Public Service Announcement: Although so many erudite people misuse the phrase, "Begging the question" doesn't just mean "leads us to the question" or "demands that we ask the question"... "Begging the question" is actually another term for circular reasoning. It gets tiresome sometimes to see even very smart people writing "And this begs the question..." when they simply mean "And that begs for us to ask the question", "demands that we ask" etc. *I just got back from a quick google to doublecheck and oops Merriam-Webster says it's a OK to use "begging the question" in this common usage. But then didn't they accept "irregardless" as a word a while back? YOU'RE NOT MY REAL DICTIONARY. I HAVE NO DICTIONARY
@Becca M-W just records language change before other dictionaries do. And why shouldn’t a phrase take on a new meaning that makes more sense than the original one—just because you or I learned it differently?
@Becca <a href="https://youtu.be/Nth4RqqmQZ4?si=RkEHcxgxfw29nGUX" target="_blank">https://youtu.be/Nth4RqqmQZ4?si=RkEHcxgxfw29nGUX</a> 😅
The first long entry I got was POST HOC ERGO PROPTER HOC ("Because of this, therefore because of this"). And that was because of a wonderful introductory English teacher who taught us the logical fallacies of propaganda. The puzzle turned into a delightful one for me at that point. And I just wanted to use this forum to pay tribute to that teacher (who would be embarrassed if I mentioned her by name). Hope that's ok with you folks. Thank you.
@JT I was reminded of one of my law school professors, who introduced me to the concept of a “slippery slope.”
Wonderful theme, very nicely clued. I wish there had been room for the genetic fallacy and the tu quoque fallacy. One of the fallacies in the puzzle has a name that was new to me. The puzzle was a lot of fun, and I thank John Ewbank.
@Manhattan Ah, tu quoque! Whataboutists beware!
I rarely put in my own two cents but I felt compelled to comment how truly great this puzzle is. Nearly every nook and cranny was a challenge but the puzzle is still solvable. Best puzzle in years.
I loved this puzzle. I especially liked the switcheroos from formal Latin to wildly informal vernacular and back again. A cultural yo-yo. IZZATSO is, now that I think of it, exactly how I pronounce that phrase. (Emphasis on the AT: izATso?!) This puzzle provided a much needed refresher on logical fallacies. Which have inundated the airwaves recently. This was a true delight. Thank you Mr. Ewbank!
I loved this puzzle! Argumentative writing a minor passion of mine, so seeing a puzzle full of logical fallacies was such a little gift!
Waste of a lovely Sunday morning
@Cheryl Lovely Sunday morning? In Florida? In July? I don't think so.
Cheryl, Don’t be so negative. I’m sure it was raining somewhere that a person didn’t do this puzzle, so it all evens out. Pure logic to the rescue again! (though I am feeling swayed by your ad geographicum, Francis… :)
Folks of a certain age who wasted a lot of time arguing on internet forums in their youth will likely do well with this one... ... myself included. 😅
@Mark Right there with you. I got NO TRUE SCOTSMAN immediately from the clue with no crossings.
@Mark Yep. 90s Internet forums made this one a breeze for me. I wonder if reactions to this puzzle break along generational lines.
@Phil C. I got it because certain mansplainers on social media love to call anything and everything a NO TRUE SCOTSMAN fallacy.